[George Pazin]

The only way to objectively test out Stone Eagle for high handicappers is for everyone to pitch in and send me, maybe Brent Hutto and maybe Garland Bayley (sorry to you two guys for the guilt by association, you're the only other self professed higher handicappers I can recall) out there to settle the matter once and for all.

 

[Tom_Doak]

George:

The only way to test it out is to fly Mr. Huckaby, Sr. there this coming winter and put him on the middle tees and see if he enjoys it or not.

To whomever asked about 100 posts ago:  I did not want to turn this into Stone Eagle vs. Black Mesa.  I am certain that Black Mesa has less turf overall than Stone Eagle, in fact it has about 15 acres less turf.  But I was surprised that Black Mesa was much more playable (for our foursome) than it looked; I did not lose a ball there, although I tried diligently on #16 after a poor tee shot into the hazard.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Huck,

I still curious, just how much buffer around each green do you want to make it playable for your Dad? Do you really need a 30 yards collar of grass completely surrounding every green? If not, what exactly would you reccomend to "make it palyable".

Really, how many Top 100 courses are playable in this respect. Watching Winged Foot East on SWWG last night, your Dad would not have a good time there either. Would you consider WFE playable for the higher handicap?

[Mark Arata]

Just got back, seems the concert world cant live without me

As one of the semi high handicappers playing (12), I really didnt think the course was that, that hard, if you are driving the ball semi straight. I had problems knowing where to hit the ball the first time around, I had problems hitting the ball to that spot the 2nd time. I thought there was bail out room on the approach shots on almost every hole except 18, and only then because of the distance of the hole. (the bail out seems to be long right, which would be hard for a high capper.
I played the whites on Sunday and the Blacks on Monday, and even though I wasnt hitting the ball that well, I didnt find the distances to be unmanagable.


I really enjoyed the course, despite the heat stoke around hole 8 on the first day. The greens were amazing, I got Doaked a few times on them. I couldnt figure out the speed either day, I hit the ball great on Sunday, not so great on Monday, but I was in play and had recovery shots on almost every missed shot.

I think this would be the kind of course you would enjoy the more you played it, there are a lot of short cuts and speed slots out there if you know where to hit them to, tough to find in 2 rounds, one of which you were seeing mirages all afternoon.

I am still trying to figure out in my mind if this or Apache Stronghold would be my favorite. I think holes 1 and 18 at SE win hands down, the rest would be close.

Fantastic job on a tough site, would love to play there again in normal temps.

Thanks again to all that made this happen, was a great time.

[Bill_McBride]

I flew up here to Portland after the sunbaked weekend in Palm Springs; it's 40 degrees cooler and sunny, great golf weather.    and no danger of heat stroke!  

I described Stone Eagle to some as "contortionist cartball," so glad to hear from Tom Doak that his guys walked and packed.  I'm not sure how you could get from some of those tees (we played the middle tees) without going back to the fairway going back to the cart path and circumnavigating the steep and rough terrain.

So relative lack of walkability loses some points with me, but doesn't affect the target audience I don't think.  The cart path construction represents quite an engineering and construction feat!

The holes were exciting to look at, lots of steep drops and dangerous looking terrain.  But you pretty quickly figured out there were really only a handful of testing carries and the golf course is definitely designed to be playable from the tee.  There were actually some interesting sideways options.  For example, there's quite a bit of fairway way off to the right of #18 toward the #16 fairway that has a great angle into the #18 green.

The absolute strength of the course is the many strong green sites.  A couple of people above mentioned the relatively benign first hole.  I can tell you that the front pin, just behind the dramatic false front, made that hole very difficult from back left.

There are some lovely skyline greens.  These in a couple of situations disguised danger for the first time player not lucky enough to have a caddy     Best example #13, where a well struck wedge directly at the pin wound up 30' down the steep slope to the right which wasn't visible from the fairway up the hill, at least not to these aged orbs!

The half par holes were solid.  #14 across the barranca, #17 shortish par 5, #18 very strong par 4 even from 448 yards.

Stone Eagle would not be my choice of everyday home course - that needs to feature walkability - but it was fun to play, and a GREAT match play venue.

Stone Eagle vs Black Mesa?  Love 'em both!

[ed_getka]

Tom H,
   I was just providing some info, I didn't mean to imply you were playing poorly. I was going for  a little humor on the what I see vs. what you guys see line, I guess a smiley would have helped. That was fun on Monday. I was home at 7:15 (would have been 20 minutes sooner, but I missed a turnoff at Azusa).


     

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed - no hassles man.  I got your drift.  And hell, you made a lot of my point for me, so I appreciate it.  I got home at about 8pm - get this - got stuck behind a fire way out by Edwards AFB that cost me an hour - I went the desert route.

Pete:

I'd disagree, my Dad would have a blast at either Winged Foot course.  He'd never lose a ball, except maybe in the one big lake on the East I can recall or if he blows one over a one of the fencelines at the boundary.  He'd have some tough chips and putts, for sure, and I'd bet my life against him breaking 110, but that's an entirely different thing.  And no, I am not asking for any huge buffers.  All I am saying is that for guys like my Dad - and hell, for me on a bad day or as I played the game not all that many years ago - it's no fun to face a shot into every green on which both sides feature death one way or the other, either lost ball or very severe penal bunkers.  Losing balls and taking so many shots to get out of bunkers just does get far more frustrating then difficult chips and pitches off of grass.

Tom D:

My Dad lives in North Hollywood, about a two hour drive away from Stone Eagle.  He doesn't like the heat much, but he is a very good sport.  Just say the word and we can indeed settle this.  I am very open to the possibility that I have this quite wrong.

 

TH

[George Pazin]

Huck, your dad sounds a lot like me, golfer-wise anyway. I'd have more fun shooting a 150 at Winged Foot than an adjusted 100 at a desert course with a bunch of in-pockets.

The question is, how would he feel about the latter if the shots were interesting, the greens cool, the environment nice, etc.?

For me, I'd enjoy that, but it just wouldn't really feel like golf, more like a fun practice session.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

You hit the ball farther than my Dad... I dare say you don't play as smart though - no offense, he manages his skill level better than Tiger Woods does his - so you're different in that respect.  But in terms of likes and dislikes, yep- losing a ball, or having to search for it for a long time... and hitting out of deep bunkers - is always going to be way worse than any shot off of grass, no matter how difficult.

That being said, such could be overcome by interesting shots, great conditions, nice treatment, good looking cart-girls, a fun match, good weather, any number of things.

Thus if my Dad did actually play Stone Eagle, I'd likely end up eating a lot of crow.  The guys greeting him and parking his car for him would end the "did I have fun" discussion right there.

 

[George Pazin]

Huck, the ultra scary thing is that I play very smart - for my skill set.

[Tom Huckaby]

George - I have absolutely no doubt that you do - you are very, very perceptive and I'd expect nothing less.

My Dad, however, just sets new standards in this.  He has never met a hazard he couldn't go around.  He has absolutely no ego when it comes to shot selection.  Oh, he still gets way too high and low during a round, but that's OK.  The point here is that wasn't a knock on you at all.

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, what about the cart paths and number 7?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Guy's, I'm a conspiracy theorist at heart.

I'm firmly convinced that Tom Huckaby has had--via Yahoo funding--a microchip implanted in his brain that notifies him directly of each post made on this thread and then instructs him to answer it back in a matter of nanoseconds.

For instance, a positive review of Stone Eagle instantaneously sends a radiowave to any section of the planet, including Mullen, Nebraska, and instructs Tom to make a counter or negative post about Stone Eagle in a matter of seconds. The Java script is usual computer lingo that puts together 1's and 0's that eventually read, My Dad hates this course.... or Unplayable around the greens, completely unplayable, just ask my Dad.... or Mr. Huntley is right again.......

We must put a stop to this madness--this research and experimentation of the human mind. It's both unethical and unmoral. I blame it all on George W. Bush and Dick Cheney Administration.

[Bob_Huntley]

I see that my good friend Thomas of Huckaby seems to be taking a pasting because he pointed out what he considers to be a couple of minor imperfections in Stone Eagle.

As I am a bit of a dunce when it comes to golf course architecture, would someone, anyone, tell me where he made a comment that was untrue or out of line?

I was unable to finish more than four holes on Sunday afternoon and therefore do not have basis to perform an opinion on the course, however I did see a bunch of three putts and a four putt during that time. This would indicate that perhaps the greens were somewhat difficult to handle for the less than competent player.

I know that Whizzer Fortson, Tom Brown and a couple of other GCA'ers played exceedingly well, but can an 18 handicapper enjoy the experience?

Bob

 

[bakerg]

I have to give credit to Huck for taking the abuse and sticking to his convictions.  As a higher handicapper, I truly enjoyed the course.  I played it a few months back now and shot well over a hundred.  I don't remember having too much trouble off the tees, though.  I think I lost a ball here and there but it wasn't like I felt handcuffed on the tee box.

The strengths of the course in my opinion are the routing, the greens, the short par 4's and the bunkering.  The only thing I didn't exactly love was the speeds of the greens.  I don't think I got a put to the hole the entire day.  

I know several have brought up the walkability issue with the course.  I have thought about this since I played the course.  I think if I was a member I would probably walk 18 in the morning at sunrise and ride 18 in the afternoon.  I know there are some extended walks from greens to tees but I don't think that would keep me from walking.  Now if it was over 100 degrees forget it.  But if you teed off at 6:30 and took two hours to play it would be a very enjoyable round.

The last thing is that this course has stuck in my head quite a bit since I played it.  Most places I can play and move on but for some reason a lot fo the holes out there have just grown on me since I was there.  I really think Doak created a great course with some fun holes.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Huck, hang in there for this site is about honest discussion. Tom Doak, I am curious about the cart paths and #7.

[Steve Pieracci]

Huck:

Okay, don't tell me where YOU hit it, but tell me which holes you thought the desert was way too close to the green.  Just saying it "in general" doesn't really help me at all, no matter how many times you say it.  Which holes are going to kill your dad?

FWIW, here is my newbie opinion on Stone Eagle:

I really liked the greens.  Each one had enough contour to make recovery interesting, challenging, and possible.  I had plenty of these shots during the two rounds, and enjoyed rolling the ball to the hole.  On many holes, I had the option to use the slope, and it worked out well, some not so well.  Hell, I even chipped on in from the front of #13 to save par.  

As mentioned above, I missed plenty of greens.  There was room to miss.  On # 8, I missed my second shot long and left.  It was fine, but did take me 3 to get down for par.  I found only one green to be unapproachable.  On #10, the narrow green angles away to the gofers right.  There is a bunker front right, and bail out zone is short left.  I hit mine long left, and it was sleeping with the rattlers.  It was a poor shot and deserved death, but, I prefer the finality of a cliff or water rather that searching for it in the briquettes.  

As for severity, if you miss, you deserve a challenge.  But if you miss in the rocks, you’re pretty much dead.  The bunkers are deep, and the sand was soft.  Long sand shots were very difficult, and on #18, Mr.  Benham’s ball plugged on what looked like a 60 degree slope.   Kinda fun for me to watch, but Mike wasn’t liking it.    

As far as tee shots, I found #4 and 18 the ones that required threading the needle.  All others had plenty of room.    
 
I could not see playing this course on a daily basis since I like to walk.  Even in the winter, I do not think I could walk Stone Eagle.  Elevation changes make this a very difficult walk.  

I had fun, but this course is not my cup of tea.  

[rjsimper]

Steve - I find it interesting that you found #4 to be a "thread the needle" tee shot.

I agree with you on 18, but I thought 4 was one of the widest out there assuming you took the proper right-side line.

What did you think of 11?  That one made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

[Steve Pieracci]

You are correct about #4, but for me, I felt like you have to thread it to avoid the long iron approach.  

#11 did not bother me for some reason.  I was not hitting driver and managed to stay just right of the bunker.

My ball was carrying quite a bit all weekend.  Any other folks clubbing down?    

[rjsimper]

4 for me was mostly a case of do NOT hit it anywhere left of what you would think is the centerline...fortunately my So. Cal cohorts warned me of this well in advance.

In the past (and this trip was no exception) I have found that the ball carries probably 5% further (likely due to the heat) than in the LA basin - usually a half club.

[Bob_Huntley]

My ball was carrying quite a bit all weekend.  Any other folks clubbing down?    

Steve,

I think that is an understatement. You almost drove the green on the first hole of The Palms and knocked the ball to Kingdom Come on some of the others. For an old codger bumping it around I found your length quite amazing and very, very depressing. Youth really is wasted on the young.

Bob

[Mike Benham]

My ball was carrying quite a bit all weekend.  Any other folks clubbing down?    

Steve,

I think that is an understatement. You almost drove the green on the first hole of The Palms and knocked the ball to Kingdom Come on some of the others. For an old codger bumping it around I found your length quite amazing and very, very depressing. Youth really is wasted on the young.

Bob

Bob -

My biggest headache from this weekend was the "driver envy" I had leaving town.  I am used to Steve "Bluto" Pieracci blowing drives past me (there was a stretch for a few years that I could keep up with him) and he is usually one-club better than me with the irons but he humbled me by constantly hitting his 5-wood past my driver at SE.  Coupled with the sneaky long Tom Huckaby and rolling drives of Ed Getka, I was the first to hit my approach shot on many holes.  I left town with my driver between my legs ...

And that doesn't even take into consideration the slingshot drives the Tom Renli was hitting on Sunday ...

I got a lot older this weekend

Mike

[Jim Nugent]

George:  it was funny how your name came up in discussions.  You were there in spirit.

I also believe I have an interesting perspective this time.. I did indeed play one round like a 20 handicap, one like a 5.  The 20 handicap suffered a lot.  

Tom, isn't that a matter of expectations?  A 5 handicap who shoots in the 90's will probably feel terrible.  A 20 handicap who shoots 90 on a good course could be ecstatic.  

[PThomas]

My ball was carrying quite a bit all weekend.  Any other folks clubbing down?    

Steve,

I think that is an understatement. You almost drove the green on the first hole of The Palms and knocked the ball to Kingdom Come on some of the others. For an old codger bumping it around I found your length quite amazing and very, very depressing. Youth really is wasted on the young.

Bob

Bob -

My biggest headache from this weekend was the "driver envy" I had leaving town.  I am used to Steve "Bluto" Pieracci blowing drives past me (there was a stretch for a few years that I could keep up with him) and he is usually one-club better than me with the irons but he humbled me by constantly hitting his 5-wood past my driver at SE.  Coupled with the sneaky long Tom Huckaby and rolling drives of Ed Getka, I was the first to hit my approach shot on many holes.  I left town with my driver between my legs ...

And that doesn't even take into consideration the slingshot drives the Tom Renli was hitting on Sunday ...

I got a lot older this weekend

Mike

it's good to know there are others who feel this way

I feel your pain, Bob and Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - well, you got me.  People have asked me what I do at Yahoo and well, I never can explain it because it's actually top secret... but man you have great contacts.  Yep, I'm a test mouse.  It's a damn fun job....

As for the rest, well... I knew going in it would not be popular to make any strong criticisms of this course.  Oh well.  But man... the discussions verbally there were filled with such, so silly naive me, I figured I would be just one voice in a chorus of such things.  Chalk up more learning.  But Bob and JB, thanks for the support.

Jim N. - you're correct - but check your IM.  My battles here have gone on way too long as it is.

TH

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