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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 09:48:48 PM »
Phillip,

With all due respect, there is a ting of anger in your writing style. I kind of picture you with bugged out eyes and typing about 300 words a minute. :)

I  didn't mean to imply it was about semantics in my post. I was simply using my experience as a gca who has worked for public agencies to speculate on what the actual contracts might have said. And it was speculation, not research.  

If Ron's history source was 1942 rather than 1958, it would make it a little better, but still not first hand evidence.  Similarly, I wouldn't, if I was seriously researching the question of attribution, call your broad "Universally acknowledged" statement in PP 3, or assertion at the end that it is Bethpage's to decide any sort of support for the Tillie argument.  

This doesn't warrant an Warren Commission type investigation, but what happened happened, and perhaps the last one to decide what true history is should be someone with a vested interest, like Bethpage or its biographer, and the first should be someone who can impartially judge.;D

Nonetheless, we are seemingly agreeing that the contract mentioned was probably not the sole basis for only limited services.  We both feel he did more than 15 site visits, possibly under different agreements for reasons I speculated on.  We both think he routed many, if not all the final routings for the golf courses.  

You also touch on those contractural problems, stemming mostly from the beaurocratic morass surely present.

The As Builts would be interesting, but they are likely done by others than Tillie, and as you suggest, things like bunkering are probably sketchy compared to the sewer lines, etc, that cross the course.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 10:47:08 PM »
Jeff, no problem... I may sound as I do as I try too hard to appear impartial and be concise while it is against my very nature to do so!

As some might tell you, I've never met a run-on sentence I didn't like, and that mostly to my detriment.

To try to address an issue that has been presented to me in the past, I really am open-minded on this issue. When I wrote the Bethpage history, not one bit of my research ever even intimated that anyone other than Tillinghast was the architect.

When Golf Digest informed Bethpage, the USGA & several others in advance of its publishing I received a number of phone calls all asking how this could be true. My response was not one of "hey guys, I already deduced this and they are wrong," but rather, I did what a responsible researcher would do and hopped onto an airplane and flew up to New York and researched once again through several archives. In doing so I found nothing new nor anything to intimate that Mr. Burbeck was anything other than the on-site Commission representative. I did realize the importance of information I already had on the subject, primarily the description of the 5th hole of the Blue course as being the famous "REEF Hole."

The importance of this hole is because this was one of the very first portions of the park and among the first holes cleared and built. Whitten maintained in his proof that Tilly was neither on-site at beginning nor end of the project, and this proves that part of the claim and his proof is incorrect.

When confronted with this, his response was that maybe Burbeck had heard of the Reef Hole and wanted to imitate it. This seems highly unlikely as the only other known Reef was built in Newport after Tilly described the idea in a 1926 Golf Illustrated article. The only person to ever build a Reef Hole of any type and refer to it as such up until this time was A.W. Tillinghast. To suggest that an unknown decided to design and build one PRIOR to Tilly's being involved at a course where he was brought in is really a ludicsrous suggestion at best.

With eyewitness accounts now of both Tilly's granddaughter and workers from the project, we now have eyewitness proof of Tilly's working there. Tilly's own writings place him on the project in the fall of 1935, after the clubhouse was built, and so we know that he was on-site at the end as well.

Now I might sound angry, but I'm not; I'm a person who has spent a goodly number of hours and personal finances investigating this question from the perspective of a person who only wants to know the truth. Obviously I am convinced that Burbeck's involvement was one that was mostly administrative and, when in the field, as the man the job foremen answered to rather than the person the workers dealt with. In other words, he didn't direct the workers actions, just their bosses. Remember, he had more than 1,800 people under him.

The result to me with all of the research that I did was that I grew to greatly respect the work that Burbeck did. The entire project revolved around this man. Roads and parking lots, sewers, electrification, the building of a clubhouse which was the largest of its kind in New York state at the time, creating and operating a caddy training program, running an open pubvlic golf course and managing a pro shop, and even more. Where in this could any person find time to also lay-out, route and design not one but THREE brand new golf courses while doing all of the above? And do so with a young wife and child?

Finally, and these were just some of the proofs of Tilly as the designer, why did the state spend the money on Tull to design the Yellow and re-design the Blue IF THEY HAD THE ORIGINAL COURSE DESIGNER IN THEIR EMPLOY AND AT THE COURSE? There is no logical answer to that. Yet still, Tull's contract called for him to be the "architectural consultant" the same title that Tilly was given in his contract and that Whitten also cites as proof that Tilly wasn't the actual designer. Yet he has never stated, nor does he believe, that Burbeck designed the Yellow & new Blue, but that Tull did.

I am deeply impressed with Burbeck's accomplishments and believe that they have actually been belittled by Whitten's mistaken assertion and continuing support of this by Golf Digest. Instead of arguing over whether he did the design, we should be praising his incredible accomplishments.

So again... I'm not angry, I'm writing here at far less than 300 words per minute and smiling away!  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D


TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2006, 10:19:25 AM »
I remember the Bethpage Black/Burbeck threads well and in my opinion the truth of who did the designing, some of the designing, most of the designing etc of the Black is just an unknowable story still.

And I just reread the Tom MacWood "In My Opinion" piece about his take on who may've done the designing of The Black.

What Tillinghast himself said about Burbeck and the Black, what Tillinghast said about Burbeck and the Pine Valley model, the article by author Rice with Burbeck etc are mentioned and then virtually dismissed with some of the oddest and most inconsistent logic I've ever seen.

From all I can glean from all the stories and information about the Black is it seemed to be just another semi-collaborative effort between various people, in The Black's case primarily Tillinghast and Burbeck.

The thing that really made me laugh is Tom MacWood tries to give Burbeck some credit for the Black by just assuming Burbeck must have designed the greens and likely little to nothing else because the greens of The Black have never been considered up to what he thinks is Tillinghast's standards on putting greens.

That kind of deduction isn't even worth putting pen to paper, in my opinion, without some specific documentation that points to that fact.

Tillinghast supposedly designed The Black but not its putting greens??  ;) :)

Hmmmmm.

The fact finding and the analyzing of it to date doesn't seem to me to be objective research, it seems to be nothing more than blatant advocacy for either Burbeck or Tillinghast.

The architectural attribution of the design of Bethpage Black should probably be Tillinghast/Burbeck or Burbeck/Tillinghast (if you want to be alphabetical about it ;) ) unless and until something more conclusive comes along like someone's design drawings that can be compared to the way the golf course was originally built.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 10:23:20 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2006, 11:20:31 AM »
TEPaul,

See my post above.

I don't doubt that Tillie drew the green plans.  He didn't use detailed contours, though. I think he had sketch plans and spot elevations.  A lot of things could have happened to those greens, if we accept they don't look a lot like Tillie's earlier greens:

 - It was the work inexperienced crews, not trained constructors familiar with his work building them, which is how greens now sometimes look different for current architects.

 - They might have been just the way Tillie wanted them ( a bit softer for a public course, even if it was to be a test)  

 - Burbeck was a take charge, take no nonsense kind of guy (he would have to be to ramrod that project) and at some point, if Tillie was off site, or too drunk, made a call that "it was good enough" and move on.

 - The course sat the winter of 1934 before seeding in 35, and they could have lost some detail work that wasn't restored.

None of this supports a hypothesis that Tillie didn't design the course. It just may be the greens didn't get his full attention to detail as some other designs for various reasons.  But he still designed the course, perhaps with more collaboration from a strong willed Burbeck than other projects got.  

Like you say, it would be nice to have some facts, since it has become a controversy. On the other hand, we probably never will, and it may be a matter of degrees.  If Ross gets credit for 300 designs where he never set foot on the property, Tillie should get credit for designing one with only 15 site visits over several years.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 11:24:56 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2006, 11:26:47 AM »
Tillinghast supposedly designed The Black but not its putting greens??  ;) :)
Let's call that the Tillinghast Paradox.

Or should that be the Burbeck Paradox?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2006, 12:02:13 PM »
Hey Dan, I'm not sure I'd call that a paradox.

Look, Tillie was obviously an ultra creative, imaginative golf architect who was capable of coming up with all kinds of novel ideas for golf and golf architecture. The man was definitely ground-breaking in many of his ideas.

After all he did design a hole called the "cart before the horse" hole where you hit about the same thing as a medium approach shot off the tee and then a full-blown drive for the second shot approach.

By the mid 1930s Tillie had sold out all his previous architectural principles to anyone who would hire him (The PGA) and went around the country removing as many of everyone's bunkers as they'd let him.

Tillie may've designed Bethpage Black but apparently at that point he'd decided that putting was really only for woman, sissies and fairies and not necessary for red-blooded, blue-collared American public golfers. Consequently, he decided to design The Black without any putting greens.

Don't you think it's logical to assume that when Burbeck reminded him that all golf courses had putting greens that that may've been the point when Tillie decided to pack it in on that socialist Long Island project and go out into the rest of the country ripping out bunkers?

That left poor Burbeck who according to some on here couldn't have possibly had any architectural talent (despite the fact he had a degree in landscape design ;) ) to design and build some really mundane greens at The Black.

It all makes perfect sense, don't you think? I mean who in their right mind who has an iota of a clue about architectural analysis could see it any other way? Since the putting greens of The Black have always been considered pretty shitty in the broad scheme of great architecture who else could have designed them but Burbeck? It's totally logical, don't you think?   ;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 12:08:40 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2006, 12:39:30 PM »
JeffB;

Look at this. Here is another piece of interesting logic on which a rather important assumption is based in this ongoing Bethpage Black saga;

This is from Tom MacWood's "In My Opinion" piece entitled "Bethpage Black--The Mystery".

Tom says;

"It is reasonable to believe that Burbeck was great admirer of PVGC, it was the most famous course in America and appeared in all the magazines of the day. But it is also seems doubtful he ever walked or played the golf course."

Tillinghast himself seems to supply the idea that the model for the Black be Pine Valley to Burbeck. But yet Tom for some odd reason thinks it's reasonable to believe that it's doubtful that Burbeck ever saw PVGC in person?!?

Why is it reasonable to believe that Burbeck never walked or played Pine Valley? Practically everyone else in the business made the journey there to inspect it. Burbeck lived about 100 miles from PVGC for maybe a decade and it's reasonably to believe that it's doubtful he ever saw it in person????

Where do these kinds of deductions come from other than just trying to tailor the facts of a situation to some pre-conceived conclusion?  ;)

Some of these self-proclaimed architecture analysts on here seem of the mindset that unless someone was rather famous or well known to them that they could not possibly have had the talent or the wherewithal to do anything good or great in architecture.

That mindset is pretty damned dense in my opinion. Although it will obviously never be known with any certainty at all I just shutter to think what the architectural input may have been on Pine Valley itself from one Jim Govan who was by Crump's side every day for five years hitting test shots and slowly developing the "designing up" stage of PVGC. And then when Crump was suddenly gone who was left to assist on finishing the last four holes? Govan was.

Govan's son who himself was the pro at Pine Valley for years has said, for instance, the entire concept of PV's 14th hole was his Dad's.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 12:42:32 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2006, 01:11:07 PM »
Does anyone know anything about Burbeck, the golfer?

I vaguely recall someone mentioning that he had in fact designed, or built another course somewhere, but can't recall the specifics.  

If nothing else, knowing more about his interest, playing ability, and general golf knowledge would provide additional circumstantial evidence and pieces of this puzzle.

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2006, 01:18:13 PM »
Burbeck was a terrific player. He held the PGA Tour (as such) coursde record for many years. He shot a 60. I'll have to look it up for the exact date.

It was his name that attracted many to visit Bethpage and play matches. Not just Nelson and Snead, but Lawson Little, Jimmy Hines, Paul Runyan and countless others.

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2006, 01:23:41 PM »
MikeC;

This from Tom MacWood's "In My Opinion" article entitled "The Bethpage Mystery".

"I began by looking into Burbeck’s background. According to the Golf Digest article, Burbeck graduated from the Massachusetts Agricultural College (U.of Mass) with a degree in Landscape Architecture and then went on to help build golf courses in the Midwest (for whom and precisely where is not known). I found that sure enough he did graduate from the school (which is in Amherst, Mass and was known for its agricultural engineering curriculum) in 1924 with a degree in Landscape Gardening. Burbeck it turns out hailed from Peabody, Mass and in 1928 he listed his occupation as Landscape Engineer. I was unable to document his golf construction experience, but it is interesting to note that Donald Ross built Salem CC (Peabody, Mass) in 1925 and that Ross had an office in North Amherst manned by one of his top assistants, Walter Hatch. Hatch just so happened to be a fellow graduate of Massachusetts Agricultural and was responsible for the construction of many of Ross’s Midwest designs."

A degree in landscape design and engineering from a Massachusetts agricultural university?? A great player, and a man who'd worked in golf course design or construction in the Midwest previous to Bethpage??

Why would anyone think a schmuck like that could POSSIBLY have any talent for golf course design and construction??  ;)

Phil Young mentioned above;

"Burbeck was a terrific player. He held the PGA Tour (as such) course record for many years. He shot a 60. I'll have to look it up for the exact date."

MikeC:

As Tom MacWood deduced don't you think it's reasonable to believe it's doubtful that a hacker like Burbeck would ever have the opportunity to see or play Pine Valley in all the years he lived on Long Island, a mere 100 miles away?  ;)



« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 01:30:12 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2006, 02:04:58 PM »
Hey Dan, I'm not sure I'd call that a paradox.

Tom I --

I was ... joking.

You do remember Tom MacWood's "Raynor Paradox," I trust -- which I would summarize as: Why do I like this stuff I don't like?

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2006, 02:18:26 PM »
If Burbeck was that good a player, and also had powerful connections with the wealthy through his work, I would say it is very likely he got at least one chance to see PV.

A strong golfer who gets a landscape degree, it would also seem he had a strong interest in golf design, and probably lobbied hard among other agency project managers to get this job, or had it given to him because of his interests.

Put that together, and it makes more sense that he would have at least wanted some input to the design.

Phillip,

Are you saying Burbeck was a PGA Tour player at some point?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2006, 02:22:15 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for your detailed reply.  I should have known that someone had already dug up those bones.

As far as Pine Valley and Burbeck's familiarity, I'm not touching that one.  ;)  ;D

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2006, 02:32:30 PM »
"Tom I --
I was ... joking.
You do remember Tom MacWood's "Raynor Paradox," I trust -- which I would summarize as: Why do I like this stuff I don't like?
Dan"

Dan:

I hope you're not surprised but I was joking too.

Of course I remember Tom MacWood's "Raynor paradox"----eg "how can such engineered architecture look so natural to me?"  ;)

I really didn't want to get on Tom at all anymore but this Bethpage thing just came up on here AGAIN and so I read his "In My Opinion" article called "The Bethpage Mystery" on this subject.

Go ahead and read it Dan, and tell me what you think. I mean he comes up with all this good and comprehensive research---and so there it is right in front of you but when it comes to his conclusion it's almost like it either didn't exist or basically said the opposite of what it does say.

I just cannot understand how he gets from A to Z, and I just guess I never could. That's life, I suppose.  ;)

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2006, 03:09:03 PM »
Jeff,

No, he was not a regular tour player by any stretch of the imagination. He played regularly in local professional events in the Met area and an occasional tournament during the year.

He spent a good deal of time teaching at ethpage, but the vast majority of his time was spent managing and running the facility.

One great round speaks of potential rather than accomplishment.

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2006, 04:20:49 PM »
Phil:

Would you think it is fair to say given all the available evidence from both sides about Burbeck and Tillinghast at Bethpage Black that given the timing, time lines and other on-site realities (such as Burbeck's background in architecture and the fact he was there every day) that the golf course should be considered as some form of design collaboration between Tillie and Burbeck?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 04:22:01 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2006, 05:41:55 PM »
No.

Before Whitten's article, no one, including Ron himself, gave consideration that anyone other than Tilly did the design. The simple fact that he has now come to this conclusion and that Golf Digest backs it seems to be the driving force behind a number of people who want to "compromise" in this issue and "give Burbeck his due."

That is why this question has two areas that need examination. The first is a standard one, who designed Bethpage Black and how can it be proved.

The second is how does one answer the questions and assertions that Ron & Golf Digest make as proof to support their position.

In addition to the tremendous amount of evidence shown that Tilly did the design, the arguments of rationalization in areas that are not evidentiary, and personal recollections by at least 3 people that I personally know of who were on-site during the construction, a specific area always refered to as "proof" that maybe Burbeck had a hand in the design or at least affected the construction adversely needs to be examined. This is the green complexes.

What I have been able to recently discover is that the greens on all the courses at Bethpage, but for purposes of discussion, on the Black course shrunk more than significantly from the late 30's to mid-50's. I now have photographs detailing a number of them. For example, a photo that the park has on the walls of the pro shop shows the green edge almost 15 feet from the crest of the hill that runs down into the pond in front of the green. It remained that way until the renovation in the 90's where they discovered that the green actually came much closer and now mow it to within about 6 feet of the crest and restored the back portion as well.

I have a photograph taken in 1938 from the FIRST Sam Snead exhibition match where he set the course record of 70 that shows the front edge of the putting surface coming to the very crest of the hill. In fact the crowds watching the match were allowed to stand on the front portion of the green while the players putted out. Standing 4+ deep the photograph shows them a good 4+ feet away from the front of the green and where it ends.

I have a number of other hpotographs that delineate much different borders to greens and, by extension, allows one to view the green complexes in a MUCH different light. I am of the opinion that the green surfaces were much like Winged Foot's and others of his designs in that they mostly ran all the way out and up the crests of the ridges that framed the holes and into which the bunkers were placed. In effect, the green surface ran along the ridge lines. All those who go to Winged Foot will clearly see many examples of this. If the green surfaces on the Black were taken out to these areas there would be good portion of the greens that would have good undulations in them, and in more than a few areas, ones that are very severe.

The original green surfaces were equal than to what most mistakenly think of as Tillinghast greens. I use the phrase "mistakenly" because Tilly did build many a green surface that were/are benign. Niot every course had greens that mimicked roller coasters.

What makes these greens true Tilly green complexes is the nature of their overall design. Tilly prided himself on, after doing preliminary routings with tee and hole locations, to first designing the "green entrances."

Tilly - "So our first step toward supplying our putting greens with character is the consideration of the type of shot which is to find that green and construct with that thought ever uppermost."

Tilly - "Construct your greens boldly and naturally, remembering at all times from which side of the fairway the approach is to come and the character of the club with which the approach is to be made."

Bold and natural did not always mean wildly undulating.

Tilly - "…and nothing can make a green more ridiculous-looking, than puny little kinks which some will insist are undulations. The long, gentle slopes make putting a fine art, and as the cups are changed from day-to-day, variety is introduced and the rounds are never monotonous."

and again, "... in introducing undulations the builder of courses must consider the shot which is to fit the green."

So, it is the green entrances that would most define a Tillinghast green.

Tilly - "…those greens which are to be gained by lofted shots from iron clubs should slope more into the shots than those which, under ordinary conditions, are reached by the finish of balls running from wood."

The shots that Tilly envisaged played into the Black's holes, especially the two-shotters would be mostly played by long iron or fairway wood, thereby necesitating LESS undulations at least in the centers of the putting surfaces with the outer edges being more bold. Don't these quotes make you picture the greens on the Black?

Again Tilly - "So our first step toward supplying our putting greens with character is the consideration of the type of shot which is to find that green and construct with that thought ever uppermost."

In every rating of great golf course, shot values and difficulty of play is factored in. This is most defined by shots intio well-designed greens rather than driving areas. The Black is continuously ranked among the top handful of courses in this category.

If one takes a careful and unbiased look at the green complexes at the Black they clearly shout out Tillinghast. I am very hopeful that Bethpage will consider restoring the greens on the Black, and the other courses as well, to their true original dimensions.

Now, to finish answering as to Mr. Burbeck and whether he was involved in the design and outcome of the Black and the other courses. In addition to everything else we have written about the time and his duties, there is this final bit of new information - he didn't only work at Bethpage during this time.

Mr. Burbeck did design one course that we know for a certainty on Long Island. This is the par-three course at Jones beach. My mentioning this now is not to downgrade him, but rather to illustrate that he was invovled in the Jones beach project at this time and spent time on sight there in a number of capacities.

When you add this to running a course, overseeing the road building, sewer installations, electrification programs, building of the park, playground, tennis courts, polo fields and a number of other areas, the building of the largest clubhouse in New York State at that time (according to the Times), creating, teaching and operating a caddy program that was recognized as the best in the country, playing in local tournaments himself, hiring and managing some 1,800 workers on a daily basis, in addition to his MANY other responsibilities, how can anyone reason that he designed and managed to to the details of construction on not one but three golf courses at one time?

So, all this writing, and as some who know will clearly agree when I say that there are many more points I haven't included, Joseph Burbeck did not design the Black, the Redor the Blue courses at Bethpage State Park.

What he did was manage the single largest golf course construction project in United States History up until that time and since!

He should be heralded and praised for this achievement and unfortunately it seems that I am the only person who seems to recognize the true scope of his accomplishment because so many are blinded by Mr. Whitten's ill-times, poorly-written and badly-researched article.

Of course Ron would probably tell you that I am at least half, if not totally, insane as well.  ;D


My goodness... after I looked back on this post I realize that it is so long that I must be the bastard offspring of an wholly unnatural mating of TEPaul and Pat Mucci!  :o

« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:43:49 PM by Philip Young »

wsmorrison

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2006, 07:16:23 PM »
Phil,

While I respect your considerable efforts and hypothesis, your argument falls far short of proof.  So far short that it really does not answer the question with any degree of certainty as to what Tillinghast did at Bethpage and what Burbeck did.  

I know expert architects that spend considerable time researching and studying a huge quantity of courses that have seen courses with sketchy attributions and totally mistake the attribution when documentary evidence is subsequently found.  The "look" of golf course in the attribution process for an architect is so unreliable as to be way down the list of levels of proof.

If you went to Philadelphia Cricket Club could you identify what is Tillinghast and what is Flynn?  Wouldn't you agree that 80 years later it becomes practically impossible without additional evidence?  The evidence you present is, for the most part, circumstantial and not conclusive.  But you may still be right  ;)  At this point it is difficult to say and I think we should leave it at that until additional evidence comes along.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 07:17:45 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2006, 08:23:48 PM »
Phil:

I agree with Wayne's post. I think the facts surely indicate that this one is just not provable at this point but here you are saying you can prove it, and we've read your reasons and reasoning.

Something like the following as an indication that Burbeck couldn't have been much involved in the design of The Black really surprises me:

"When you add this to running a course, overseeing the road building, sewer installations, electrification programs, building of the park, playground, tennis courts, polo fields and a number of other areas, the building of the largest clubhouse in New York State at that time (according to the Times), creating, teaching and operating a caddy program that was recognized as the best in the country, playing in local tournaments himself, hiring and managing some 1,800 workers on a daily basis, in addition to his MANY other responsibilities, how can anyone reason that he designed and managed to to the details of construction on not one but three golf courses at one time?"

Look Phil, you list all those OTHER things that Burbeck did as proof he couldn't have designed or really overseen the construction of the Black. How do you know to what extent he participated in all those other things you just listed?

If one can say doing all those other things precluded him from being able to be involved in the design of The Black, I guess some sewer historian could just as easily include the design and overseeing of the Black by Burbeck as something he was intimately involved in, among all those OTHER things you listed, and so conclude that Burbeck couldn't have been much involved in the creation of the Bethpage sewer system, or the electrification project, or the polo fields, or the clubhouse, or the....... etc, etc.  ;)

Phil, we don't mind accepting really concrete documentary evidence and reasoning but give us a break.

Tillinghast was at Bethpage for what----15 days total and he designed the Black and two other courses?

Burbeck was on that site how long and you assume he couldn't have designed or EVEN OVERSEEN the construction of the Black?

Well, Phil, who do you think did oversee the construction of the Black if it wasn't Burbeck? Do you think it was just someone else? Have you any clue who that may've been? Inquiring minds would love to know. Was it Tillie who did all that overseeing in his 15 days on site? That was sure a fast design and construction project, don't you think? Did Tillie stay there for 15 days while the course was constructed or did he come and go over time while the construction workers stopped and waited for him to come back? I guess that's possible or maybe old Joe Burbeck pitched in every now and again even when he was heavily involved in the sewer system and shit. After-all he did live and work right there---and every day for years.  ;)

Looks to me like the truth of who did what design-wise on the Black is still out there somewhere.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 08:34:48 PM by TEPaul »

John Yerger

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2006, 08:46:45 PM »
Tom and Wayne

I have shared this with Phil. In the book, Fifty Years of American Golf, which was published in 1937, HB Martin wrote "Tilly is rather proud of his work at Bethpage, where there are four courses being built. The planning and building of courses was done for the New York State Park Commission and comprises a tract of 1300 acres." This is considered a cornerstone book for any book collector.
Earlier in the same paragraph Martin wrote, "For eleven years in succession a major championship has been played over a Tillinghast links. This is a distinct compliment to Tillingahst who has been actively engaged in designing courses for more than thirty years." Later he lists some of the courses Batusrol, Fresh Meadows et al and then states, " and the new Bethpage courses on Long Island where the public links championship was held." Again attribution for Tillinghast and the championship was played on the Red which some have attempted to give attribution to someone other than Tillinghast.

Martin was a prominent golf writer covering metropolitan New York for the Herald. He wrote club histories for both St Andrews(Ny) and Garden City as well. He obviously had a significant enough reputation to be hired by two of the oldets clubs in New York and the United States. The question I have is why would Martin give incorrect attribution for a course that opened just a year earlier? Why would he risk his reputation to write something that would be easily checked and was a part of the public record? In one year memories and information has not been lost or misplaced. I don't doubt Burbecks involvement handling construction but for Whitten to state that Tillinghast was merely a supervisor doesn't jive with the written record by one of the top writers of the time. Martin has no incentive to not give credit where it is due.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2006, 09:17:09 PM »
John,

Prominent reporters today report false design attributions as the course is being built, as in a "Freddy Couples" signature design.........when someone else is doing the real work.

As such, the believers in the Burbeck Design theory would say that Tillie could have been hired as a "name" only, even with a fairly original first hand report such as you mention......

Again, if we want "proof" it would have to come in the form of a daily log.  Even Burbeck or Tillie descendants recalling them being on site really proves nothing, as I don't think anyone doubts Burbeck was somewhere nearby daily, and Tillie was there periodically as you would expect.

I don't doubt Phil that Tillie drew at least a plan for the course, and the workers may very well have scaled the greens off of them best they could.  They may have once been masterpieces that were softened by subsequent uninformed or unenlightened park directors.  

I do suspect that Burbeck had more control of the final product than most Owners reps do, because he was there, he was interested, he was trained in LA and he was powerful enough.  Even so, you could look at the renderings, the original green shapes, and get an idea how much things may have changed.  Of course, the question would still be did Tillie change them, or did Burbeck or some WPA worker for that matter?

This is a fascinating subject to me.  Remember, I am interested enough in Tillie to visit the house where he last lived.  BTW, Phil, are there any details on his death?  I told the lady who lived there that a famous person had died in her house, but later thought he might have made it to the hospital, which is not far down the street.  She, and her very angry looking rapper son didn't appear to happy to hear that!

Phil, I need to reread your Tillie bio, but could you briefly put Tillie in perspective at the time of design and construction?  Was it one of his drinking periods, etc.?  That might shed some light on things.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Yerger

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2006, 09:44:02 PM »
Jeff
Valid points but there are aspects of that course that seem to be a duplication of similar design philosophys that Tillinghast utilized on other courses, the fourth hole in particular. Tillinghast wrote and utilized the concept of the double-dogleg and the use of the cross-bunker, or the "great hazard" on many courses, Pine Valleys 7th, Baltusrols 17th, Quaker Ridges' 14th, Newports 16th, Somerset Hills 9th and Sunnehanna's 15th. I know there are others on other course that have them. When you stand on that tee, and you have played enough of his other courses, you can't help but see the consistent use of this concept. It is there at Bethpage.
I can't speak to the REEF hole at the Red which Phil has mentioned. I haven't played it.

I don't believe you can totally dismiss both Martins writing and the New York Times article as well. Neither the article or book was used by Whitten. The timing of both should not be any less valid than the memory of a young boy listening to his granfather. There is alot that we simply will not know with alot of these courses nor will we.That is what makes this a great place to discuss and learn.

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2006, 09:51:12 PM »
Yerger, listen here you little Wiffensnoozer, you go right back to your room with no supper, right now?

For that matter why would Rice have written Burbeck designed the course? If that was a bold-faced lie I suppose it could've hurt Rice's reputation. Why did Burbeck basically tell Rice he designed the course? If that was a bold-faced lie it seems to me that could've hurt Burbeck's reputation and his credibility too since he worked right there at Bethpage. Seems like if that were a bold-faced lie on his part there were a bunch of people right there at Bethpage that might've asked him what the hell he was talking about if it was so obvious back then Tillinghast designed the course.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2006, 10:04:47 PM »
JeffB:

At that time Tillie may've been at Bethpage for a solid 15 days but of all that time there that was a period when Tillie spent about half the day waving his arms just trying to stay on his shooting stick without falling over and hurting himself. That was the absolute pinnacle of Tillie's "flask architeture" period---frankly some of his most creative and greatest work but sometimes irascible and inconsistent in spots.

The real reason the course had mundane greens and blow-away great arhitecture "though the green" is for some reaon Tillie tended to do "through the green" design later in the day when he had a real toot on and was highly creative "flask archiecture" style.

Truth be told he tended to do the greens in the am when he was petulant and edgy and not anywhere near his creative best. Some have even said he did some of those greens at Bethpage before his flask was even delivered to him. Those are the greens which always sucked the most.

If you had a world-class hangover in the am would you try designing really contoured greens? No f....way---you'd do just like Tillie did---eg make 'em flat and boring just so you could be sure you'd stay on your feet.

John Yerger

Re:The greatest architectural golf stories every scooped...
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2006, 10:06:25 PM »
El Presidente', please note it was done with respect to you as a leader of a third world nation, when did Rice write his article? Did he utilize sources like the New York Times, which didn't employee Mr Blair at that time, or Martins book which is highly regarded by the likes of the late Joe Murdoch or the equally well versed Dick Donovan? That is all I am saying. I do believe they have some degree of credibilty. Maybe if they were in Mother Jones you might believe what is written. I don't believe that Burbeck wasn't involved in some aspects of Bethpage, he had to he built them and the other courses but I also don't believe that Tillinghast wasn't involved in the design of the courses which some have argued. So TEP go to the WaWa and get a cheesesteak with wizz!!!