News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« on: June 04, 2006, 11:51:06 PM »
Ive played  the red and black courses several times. So I would appreciate opinions about the positive attributes of these 2 courses. Are the routing  or greens more fun on Blue or Green, Which are standout holes.Any   Emmet  moguls/ Tilly pears still there....
thanks

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 11:58:14 PM »
Mark,

The Blue is really nothing special and IMO the worst of the Bethpage courses. I'd rather play the Yellow, which features a GREAT stretch of Tillie holes from 10-14, including the famous "Reef" hole and two excellent par 3s.

I've only walked/driven around the Green and will hopefully play it soon. There is a great stretch from 2-5, with the drivable par 4 4th as the highlight. The 18th hole is also a phenomenal closer designed by Tillie after the old Lenox Hills routing was rerouted. The Green also has some neat small greens with weird contouring that should make for a delightful round.

If you do play the Blue, the standout holes are the 2nd, 5th and the stretch from 12 to 16.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 06:31:23 AM »
I'll weigh in after I return home from the Qualifier today, but the main idea is it's the Green Course all the way.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2006, 08:03:48 AM »
Mark,

I'll third the Green.  There are definitely some of the Emmett moguls around the green sites and the routing is certainly very nice.  As Kyle points out 2-5 is a good stretch with 2 being a very interesting green which has some great natural contouring.  The 11th green is also quite cool.  

The Blue kicks any Westchester muni courses behind, but you get the feeling you are playing the same par 3 4 times because of playing over the same ravine each time.  I'm in the Green/Yellow then Blue camp.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2006, 01:02:35 PM »
The Green has always been a favorite of mine. A pleasant golf course with varying elevations in and out of the mature trees.

The course starts off with a par 4 of about 350 yds from the same proximity and elevation as the Black with the hole being more straight away, less yardage and the green set at a slight angle to the approach.

The second is a straight away par 4 (410) with Round Swamp Road to the right (OB) and a line of mature trees on the left to a green which at times will confound you.


3rd- uphill par 3 about 150 yds set in a nice little wooded corner of the property.

4th - regal downhill par 4 with room on the right (long) off the tee bordering the same row of trees as the left side of two to a well-guarded green sitting at the bottom of the hill.

5th - dogleg left par 4 around a lake in an open setting.

6th - longer par 3 (195) to a slightly elevated green with a false front.

7th - nondescript par 5 over a slight hill in an open part of the course.

8th - cool little par 4 with a deep narrow green bordered by humps on both left and right of it. Hole starts in the open part of the course and transitions back into the trees.

9th - terrific par 5 with the sharp dogleg occuring after placement of your second shot.

10th- VERY elevated short par 4 to a cramped landing area bordered by trees calling for  3 or 4 iron off the tee unless you can work the ball like JES.  ;)

11th - 160 yd par 3 which takes you back out of the trees.

12th - another cool short driveable par 4 dogleg left over a taller tree to a significantly tiered green (two shelves).

13th - long sweeping open downhill par 5.

14th - straightaway par 4 to neat green complex well-guarded by bunkers.

15th - par 3 from fairly elevated tee (170 yds) to a flatish green in appealing setting.

16th - par 4 straightaway midlength

17th - fabulous par 4 of around 400 yds slight dogleg to right with fairway canted to left and large slightly tiered green set at slight elevation in side of hill next to 2nd tee of the Black.

18 - Good uphill par four finisher with approach to shelf of a green cut out of hill on the right. Large classic Tillie bunker guards left side. Green site plays much like terrific green at #4 The Bridge.

   The Green is an enjoyable place to love the game of golf for all levels of players scoring high in the "walk in the park test" and will allow the better player to go low if the shots are executed properly.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 11:25:14 AM »
Mark:

The issue with the Blue is that the best holes you face come with the front half -- the inner half is a good step or two below what you encounter right at the beginning of the round.

Gene highlighted the aspects of the Green Course -- I salute the ending two holes -- the 17th is one of the more under-appreciated and under-valued holes at the entire complex.

I'd give the Green the slightest of edges.

Be curious to hear from Doug what the turf conditions are like at the two courses.

Jay Flemma

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 11:38:33 AM »
Mark, I luv ya, but you sure can pick some second raters!

There is one course at Bethpage and it is BLACK.  Everything else is forgettable.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2006, 12:04:08 PM »
Jay,

I know you've said similar things before, but surely you must find some value in the other courses, especially the Red.  Does your opinion come from the feeling that if you make the effort to get to Bethpage and are so close to greatness then why settle?  

I find it difficult to think of many public courses that are as interesting as the Red.  The other BP courses are at least worth a play to see where the Tull and Tillinghast are on the Blue and Yellow and how Emmitt's routing hugs the natural contours of the land so well on the Green (IMHO).  I suppose I'm just surprised to see such strong feelings about the other courses especially in light of playing them with the eye towards viewing some old dead guy’s architecture.  

I may be biased here since I mostly get to play the not so great Muni's in Westchester County.  When you compare that to what Bethpage offers you can see why I would be a defender of all colours @ BP.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2006, 01:03:42 PM »
   Indeed, Jay, if someone from this website is only in town for three days one should play Black all three days. Afterall, Black is one of the greatest courses in the world.

However, there is much golf to enjoy at the five course Bethpage complex for all to appreciate.

With respect to the Green, it is nice every once in a while to go to Bethpage to have a pleasant round of golf, maybe even go low, by avoiding the body slam one usually receives at The Black.

Golf for me  is recreation (and for most golfers in general) and there IS something to be said for walking a course with a smile on one's face. :)
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jay Flemma

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2006, 02:29:13 PM »
Dave, the red and the blue are just a dreary slog to me (except 13 red).

Also, I stood there once on the 1st green at the red and looked over at the black and said "I gave up a tee time on the black to play this?  Even just once?  I suck."

I get the red they get the Black?  Like they said in LA Confidential..."You get the girl, I get the coroner..."

Kevin Edwards

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2006, 03:23:51 PM »
Jay-

That is a redonkulous comment.  Is the Red not enough golf course for you?  Are the strategies not apparent?  Relative to your game what about the Red causes it to be a slog-- too long? too short? It shares much of the good rolling terrain the Black is routed over, it has a better variety of good to excellent green contours/surfaces than the Black.  It requires working the ball in both directions off the tee and with approach shots.  It has the intimate feel and flow that make it a walk in the park (oops you have TM on that phrase! on your blog is it trademarked??) so what is wrong here?

I just spent 45 minutes on your blog reading your reviews (did you write for any of the "Lad" like UK publications? .. Perhaps Tillie is not your cup of Joe as it seems Silva and Engh are your fancy.  I love to visit the Met Area socially or when I play in competitive events for scratch players.  What's not to like?

Jay- that is a nice quip from LA Confidential.  You seem to yield to your own bias and temptations in your opinion.  Very much like Cookie Monster does to the proximity of a cookie.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 03:26:20 PM by Kevin Edwards »

Jay Flemma

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2006, 04:05:53 PM »
Kevin->  You're sure angry. :)

 I don't dig on the red because it has so few options.  The red is simply a watered down version of the blackGive me more holes like 13, fewer holes like 16.  You tell me...the Mona Lisa is standing next to an ansel adams black and white photo and you can only look at one...which one do you choose?

As a matter of fact, yes I do own the trademark, thanks for asking.

Please by all means...when you're visiting..playing in those scratch events and socializing and what not...play the red to your heart's content.

More times for me on the Black.

As for bias...tell me what exactly is my bias?  I'm curious!

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2006, 04:09:15 PM »
Dave, Gene,Kevin, et al  thanks so much for the detailed descriptions Blue, green ,and yellow.

 Green sounds like a hidden gem.   Mr Emmet did some fine work. Wee Burn and Huntington are splendid.  does anyone how much  D.Emmets protege  Alfred Tull did at Green or Yellow ?  thanks

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 04:21:03 PM »
Mark,

Alfred Tull added 18 holes to Bethpage by splitting up what was then the Blue Course. The Tillinghast holes/greens that exist on the Blue and Yellow courses were the old Blue Course prior to 1954.

In addition to some rerouting (like the 7th, 8th, and 17th holes of the Yellow, which are Tillie Greens but Tull holes) he added all original holes like the majority of the first nine of the Blue course (the notable 2nd hole is Alfred Tull). I believe the Tillinghast stretch of the Blue starts at the 12th hole and ends at the 18th.

Kevin Edwards

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 04:33:08 PM »
Kevin->  You're sure angry. :)

 I don't dig on the red because it has so few options.  The red is simply a watered down version of the blackGive me more holes like 13, fewer holes like 16.  You tell me...the Mona Lisa is standing next to an ansel adams black and white photo and you can only look at one...which one do you choose?

As a matter of fact, yes I do own the trademark, thanks for asking.

Please by all means...when you're visiting..playing in those scratch events and socializing and what not...play the red to your heart's content.

More times for me on the Black.

As for bias...tell me what exactly is my bias?  I'm curious!


Jay- you never answered any of my questions, just a blanket I see no options.. And no I'm not angry. Can anyone quote Cookie Monster in that state?  I spent a lot of time reading your blog and I commend you for you zeal and obvious gumption but I found your spirit to be unlivened by your prose.  The use of lad like expressions paradoxically causes it to lose animation or interest.  It become flat and not tactile.  But it is a blog, not the New Yorker so maybe I'm offbase.  I just found a lot of love for Silva and Engh.. and Doak too.  Not that anything is wrong with that but I find criticism to be virtuous when done right.  Criticism is identifying problems.  Identifying problems or architecture that doesnt work is essential to improving the artform.  The biggest impediment to this is that most people tend to tie their egos to their views and as a result are reluctant to identify and talk openly about things.

When I read your writing and your slog comments on the Red I don't see bonified prose and analytical reporting.  Read Doak's book if you want to see how to slice and dice.. Or at least Wethered and Simpson.

Jay- I'm being critical here and somewhat conflicting, but there is no hierarchy in giving or receiving critique.  I have learned a lot from people pointing out my mistakes and I want genuine criticism, I assume all want to learn from that. So really defend your view of the Red here.  You are a lawyer, what really say you Counselor?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 04:36:57 PM by Kevin Edwards »

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 04:37:28 PM »
I don't dig on the red because it has so few options.  The red is simply a watered down version of the blackGive me more holes like 13, fewer holes like 16.  You tell me...the Mona Lisa is standing next to an ansel adams black and white photo and you can only look at one...which one do you choose?

Jay,

False Dilemna... you don't only have to play one course. It's not as if playing the Red will make the Black disappear forever.  ;)

Jay Flemma

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 04:47:59 PM »
Kevin, fair enough comment...maybe I got a little touchy too...but basically between writing for Golf Observer, Cybergolf, my book and my blog, I just don't have time to do essays here.  The red simply bores me and I'm not a fan of PARKLAND golf to begin with...I MUCH prefer links.  After that my taste runs more to Black Mesa and Tobacco Road than Hawktree, even though I like Jim Engh's work too.  

I like courses with lots of options and that have severe green complexes and have a splash of color.  Sure some strange things kick in from time to time - that's just gonna be true of anyone.  Perfect example is redanman...a really bright guy on architecture but for some reason that escapes me he likes turning stone and most people here dont...I actually like some "un-GCA" places like Coeur D'Alene.  Sure its not natural, but the air there is like wine and try taking you're girl there!  You'll get a years worth of chits in one shot!

As for my style, try this...Everything I write is meant to read out loud.  What sometimes looks funny on the page takes on new life and meter read aloud to your buddies or office mates.

Sometimes I let loose a little, but like you said...thats on my blog.  Read my cybergolf or GO stuff and its a different story...again read those aloud too.

Thanks for reading.  I'll try to remember the constructive points and work them in.  But I really try to view each course with a clean slate and evaluate it on its merits.  I'll pooint out things I dont think work and praise what I like, but my system is based on solid evaluation factors and I trust my instincts.  I just dont like the red...its not my cup of tea.

It has very little horizontal movement in the fairways.  It has only a little vertical movement.  The greens are just OK...they pale when compared to Sawgrass, Black Mesa, Tobacco, etc.

Natural Setting?  PLease...its merely average.

Design:  Lets see, no redan, no biarritz, no lion's mouth, no severe false fronts, no punchbowls...

conditioning - fine.  score one point
'value...good...but with the black next door...

I'd rather play centennial's fairways and meadows nines or richter or even a low impact round at casperkill than slog on the red all the time wondering why the heck I dodnt take that single time on the black.

It's the girl vs. the coroner.

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2006, 04:49:56 PM »
Design:  Lets see, no redan, no biarritz, no lion's mouth, no severe false fronts, no punchbowls...

Hmm yes, the last time I played the Black, I remember parring the biarritz there...

Oh wait...

Come on Jay, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?  ;D

Just remember, there are three immutable truths:

One of them is to never start a land war in Russia during the winter.

Another is to never go up against a sicilian with death on the line.

And the third is to never try to pass a logical fallacy past Kyle Harris when he is paying attention.

All that is said with the delivery that only Wallace Shawn can provide.

INCONCEIVABLE!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 04:51:57 PM by Kyle Harris »

Jay Flemma

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2006, 04:53:12 PM »
No Kyle, comparing the black with the red is comparing two completely different rank of golf courses.  I know you have a soft spot for the red, but very very very few people think they are equals to each other.

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2006, 06:13:17 PM »
<threadjacking>

Anyone up for having a go at getting out on the black this week? Thursday or either Sat or Sun works for me. IM if interested!

</threadjacking>

Kevin Edwards

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2006, 06:18:37 PM »
No Kyle, comparing the black with the red is comparing two completely different rank of golf courses.  I know you have a soft spot for the red, but very very very few people think they are equals to each other.

Jay -

I don't want to pile on but no one is saying that The Red is the equal of the Black.  However, would you not agree that its greens are overall better.

With regard to your assessment that it might be trying too much to be like the Black I would ask you if you object to Philadelphia Cricket Club for the magnificant brutes that close each nine (#9 and #18)?  They are manly par 4's as are found at so many Tillinghast courses. Bethpage Black does not and should not have a monopoly on tee to green strength. Each course should be looked at for its own strengths and weaknesses.  The Red in my opinion can hold its head high.

How about providing some specifics on individual holes. I have a fancy for #4 (par 3), the stretch from 9-11, (you like #13 already), and 14-16.  There is some mighty good golf in there but I do admit those holes will not yield to anything but skilled playing (much like The Black  ;) )

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Bethpage Blue or Green ?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2006, 06:28:51 PM »
To add to Kevin's point the 5th is a unique hole as well.  I might be too short a hitter, and see different parts of the hole, but the green framed by the two larger bunker as well as the bit of blindness make that a hole largely different than the Black.  Not necessarily better than any hole, but adds to the point that the Red is not just a little sister to the Black.  I find the Black to be a better course, but have more fun on the red.

18th on the Red is a much better closer as well.