[Troy Alderson]

Treehouse Gang,

What would the game of golf be like if it did not originate on the shores of Scotland?

How would golf had developed if originating from an inland golf course?

What would the hazards (bunkers) have developed into?

Would the "playing fields" be designed differently?

What would be the ground cover of choice?

I suspect that if originating inland, golf would not be as natural as it can be today.  Even with the over maintained golf courses out there.  I suspect that if originating inland, we would not have sand bunkers but some other form of natural hazard.  I suspect that other forms of natural topography would have greatly dictated the design.

Use your imagination here.  I believe this can be used to help us more appreciate the origins of the game and the history behind it.

Troy

[PThomas]

trees on courses -- gasp! - might be less criticized by some folks

[Craig Sweet]

Are you certain the game originated in Scotland...."along the shores"?

[Troy Alderson]

Are you certain the game originated in Scotland...."along the shores"?

Craig,

First, that is not the point.  But that is the accepted origin of golf even though there is a small controversy about that.

Second, do you enjoy "singling" me out with your comments?

Open your mind Craig and enjoy this thread.  Golf has evolved into what it is today.  I am wondering what the game and architecture and maintenance would be like if it had evolved a different way.

You may want to stay out of this thread and let the rest of us have some fun with it.

Troy

[Craig Sweet]

You sure have a warped additude....you're still bent out of shape because I suggested you join the PGA Tour if you want "standardized" golf courses and cookie cutter maintinance practices?


But back to the origin of the game and then on to your topic.

Do a google search on the origin of golf and you'll see that the game had several origins.

As to your topic...if the Eskimo's had "originated" golf, we might have large snowbanks and icebergs as hazzards instead of sandtraps.....of course tree's would not be a problem.....

Maybe if the game had taken a stronger hold in China we would have massive plantings of bamboo to contend with....

[Garland Bayley]

...
Second, do you enjoy "singling" me out with your comments?
...
Troy

Wow, where did that come from? The recent news has golf originating in China, so what Craig said was pertinent. Why does it get diss'ed?

I just got done reading Ian Andrew's thread about what if the GCAs left the site, because of all the negativity. The first thing I read next is a negative comment from Troy. Maybe Ian is right.

[Troy Alderson]

You sure have a warped additude (attitude)....you're still bent out of shape because I suggested you join the PGA Tour if you want "standardized" golf courses and cookie cutter maintinance (maintenance) practices?


But back to the origin of the game and then on to your topic.

Do a google search on the origin of golf and you'll see that the game had several origins.

As to your topic...if the Eskimo's had "originated" golf, we might have large snowbanks and icebergs as hazzards instead of sandtraps.....of course tree's would not be a problem.....

Maybe if the game had taken a stronger hold in China we would have massive plantings of bamboo to contend with....

If I am bent out of shape, it because you do not seem to contribute anything useful to the discussion board, only smart a.. remarks.  I also like it when people get my name right, (Tony).  As to your posting above, like I said open your mind.

I would like to ask you a favor, please do not comment on my postings unless you have something constructive to add.

Troy

[Garland Bayley]

Perhaps the reason golf survived in Scotland and we therefore look there for its roots is that it had an environment that could be maintained for more than just Emperors and members of the high court to play. Sheep, goats, and rabbits are available to more than serfs.

[Troy Alderson]

...
Second, do you enjoy "singling" me out with your comments?
...
Troy

Wow, where did that come from? The recent news has golf originating in China, so what Craig said was pertinent. Why does it get diss'ed?

I just got done reading Ian Andrew's thread about what if the GCAs left the site, because of all the negativity. The first thing I read next is a negative comment from Troy. Maybe Ian is right.

Garland,

I apologize if I come across negative, Craig just brings that out of me with his comments.  I am very serious about the game of golf, its history, architecture, and traditions.  It is not just a game to me.  Craig, made some comments on my previous post about "standards and operations" of what we (GCatlas) usually like about golf courses.  We are just goading each other on, seeing how far each will take it.

So Garland, what do you think of the topic?

Troy

[Troy Alderson]

Perhaps the reason golf survived in Scotland and we therefore look there for its roots is that it had an environment that could be maintained for more than just Emperors and members of the high court to play. Sheep, goats, and rabbits are available to more than serfs.

Great stuff Garland, but what do you think the game would be like if it started inland in Scotland or some other country.

Troy

[Garland Bayley]

My idea is that it wouldn't have started anywhere else other than for people of immense wealth, in which case fads would change and its birth would be aborted.

[Troy Alderson]

Garland,

I agree.  Golf started where it did for a reason.  I think it was because of the linksland, fine turf, and bio-mowers/fertilizers.

In a previous thread, we were talking about bunkers and how they were a natural hazard for the area.  What would the hazards have been if the game started elsewhere?  Is that what golf course architecture needs to evolve into to survive in this environmental sensitive world?

Troy

[Craig Sweet]

Garland...I was under the impression that regardless of where this game played with sticks and stones (or feathers wrapped in leather) occured, it was played by "common people"....

However, it seems to me that a certain level of lesiure class...money...governmental structure....ahhhhh...civilization, if you will, was necessary for it to become organized and mass produced.

[Garland Bayley]

If it had started in the Willamette Valley, hazards would have been blackberry brambles that the goats hadn't had time to get to.

[Craig Sweet]

I don't know as if it would matter where it took hold. People travel, and they often see something far different than they have at home. Replicating landforms, hazards, techniques etc. is fairly common. Is there a state in the Union, with the possible exception of Alaska, that does not have a "links style" course?

I asked this question a long time ago...when the game jumped acrosss the pond, and a European architect came to the New Engalnd coast, did he import fescue's from Scotland? Probably not, because the native grass worked out just fine.

As for maintinence practices....there's only so many ways to shorten grass....let something eat it....burn it....cut it. Of course, now we can chemically alter it's gibilleric acids....

[Garland Bayley]

...
As for maintinence practices....there's only so many ways to shorten grass....let something eat it....burn it....cut it. Of course, now we can chemically alter it's gibilleric acids....

That's interesting. How do you do that? We dab giberillic acid on a camellia after removing the growth bud to make the flower bloom earlier and larger. Your statement brings visions of dabbing acid on each grass leaf.

[Craig Sweet]

Growth regulators mess with the plant's gibillarians....

Gibillaric acids are what determine elongation....

[Forrest Richardson]

Troy — I think it would be a game where trees are much more highly regarded...at least in terms of the "classic" look. Just look at the modern American golfer...let us say a chap who has grown up in the heartland of this country playing golf. He does not understand golf without trees — a links setting. He believes trees are essential to the game.

Craig — Yes, it began in Scotland...along the coast. I know this is true because I have written it and it has been published. And people have bought enough books that it must be so.

[Craig Sweet]

Forrest....then the coast of Scotland it is!

Golf has adapted to all kinds of different conditions...good soils, lousy soils....rural areas...urban areas....linklands, heavy woods....

I find it interesting that people are compelled to make replica's of what they have seen.....everything from waterfalls to phony creeks and links style courses in Iowa....wow!

[Forrest Richardson]

I have longed to create a course with an agricultural theme — Iowa may be the place. Straight rows of corn...wheat field carrys...furrowed fairways...irrigation canals...pig pen traps...the list goes on.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Craig — Yes, it began in Scotland...along the coast. I know this is true because I have written it and it has been published. And people have bought enough books that it must be so.

Reminds me of teaching in Ethiopia. Tell the kids the book is wrong and they think you are nuts. Clearly demonstrate the book is wrong and they still think you are nuts.

However, the smiley face tells me that you don't think I'm nuts when I say it was first played in China.

I do like Troy's question about what would we have instead of sand bunkers. I think that we spend too much time idolizing sand bunkers. I think courses that have appropriate, strategic, heavily grassed hollows should be given just as much credit. In trying to come up with an alternative, I thought of the blackberry bramble.

[Forrest Richardson]

Garland — I do think you are nuts!

China? Come on.

As I pointed out a few years back, golf began wherever we find evidence of golf courses. I have seen no evidence of an expansive playing board over natural terrain in China. The stick and ball games there were, as I understand it, court based and confined. I also recall the liklihood being that the games were team based, akin to het kolven.

Golf courses are the key. Where we find evidence of purposeful obstacle courses laid out over natural terrain — Scotland, as an example — we are likely to find the origins of what we refer to as "golf".

[Craig Sweet]

Forrest...have you ever driven around out in the Palouse of eastern Washington, western Idaho?  The Palouse would be the ideal location for a golf course with a rural theme. In fact, I have long had a dream of building the worlds longest golf course out there. I'm talking a course that might take a couple of days to play. Lodging and meals would have to be provided on the course. A short hole might be 2-3 miles long!

[Troy Alderson]

I don't know as if it would matter where it took hold. People travel, and they often see something far different than they have at home. Replicating landforms, hazards, techniques etc. is fairly common. Is there a state in the Union, with the possible exception of Alaska, that does not have a "links style" course?

I asked this question a long time ago...when the game jumped acrosss the pond, and a European architect came to the New Engalnd coast, did he import fescue's from Scotland? Probably not, because the native grass worked out just fine.

As for maintinence practices....there's only so many ways to shorten grass....let something eat it....burn it....cut it. Of course, now we can chemically alter it's gibilleric acids....

Craig,

You make a good point here about people replicating what they see elsewhere.  People have the tendency to think the grass is greener on the other side.  I am no different, if it ain't golf in Scotland it ain't real golf.  Unfortunately I have not been able to travel to Scotland to experience it myself.  People copy what they think is pretty, if it worked there it should work here.

Troy

[Troy Alderson]

Troy — I think it would be a game where trees are much more highly regarded...at least in terms of the "classic" look. Just look at the modern American golfer...let us say a chap who has grown up in the heartland of this country playing golf. He does not understand golf without trees — a links setting. He believes trees are essential to the game.

Forrest,

That explains why golfers can be so upset when the chainsaw comes out.  I am glad we are seeing a backlash about trees on golf courses in the USA.

Troy

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