Who needs a short game at The Old Course...

[Matthew Mollica]

And why do you need a great short game at The Old Course?  

Is it just me, or is this comment a little wide of the mark?

MM

[Andrew Thomson]

I saw it and was considering a response but then concluded that it was surely a joke.

[Mark_F]

Matt,

Nice to know we can scour each other's posts for possible topics.

Why do you think it is a little wide of the mark?

In general, the greens are huge.  'Misses' are often on the green, necessitating mere dexterity with the putter. I hit more greens in regulation there than I ever have before or since. Little pitches aren't required that often.  Sure, there may be some degree of long putting and bump and running, especially if the wind is strong, but I don't see how there is any way you need a full short game arsenal.  

Dornoch or Carnoustie demand a much fuller repetoire of short shots.

Nicklaus won there twice and he didn't have a great short game did he?  Ditto Faldo.  Woods didn't need one in 2000.

[Andrew Thomson]

I hit more greens in regulation there than I ever have before or since.

2?

as for the rest of your post I still think you're joking and won't take the bait.

[Kevin Pallier]

You do need a good short game to "score well" at St Andrews - that + a fair bit of luck and bucketloads of imagination.

KP

[redanman]

Everyone.

Certainly some supreme management skills can keep you from the "Worst misses" for any possible target, thereby eliminating THAT need but with all the contours and scale, it's hard to believe that one can get it done without.

Lag putting, pitch/chip imagination and other parts of "The short game" are needed in various degrees depending on whether or not more central or peripheral pin locations are used.

[Glenn Spencer]

Redanman,

That thing under your name is starting to hurt my eyes. I think the Old Course does ask you to have a good short game if you would like to score and take advantage of the opportunities that you are going to have. I will say that there are some shots on American courses that your average hack will cunk or duff or skull, I don't find an abundance of these at the Old Course. I would say that you could somewhat mask an average short game here, if you hit it in the right places. Nicklaus proved this theory twice.

[rgkeller]

If the ability to lag putt from long distances and from off the green is the definition of a short game, then you need one.

If the definition is the ability to handle a variety of off green lies with a variety of shots, then the answer is no.

[ForkaB]

Most of us visitors play the Old Course from the front tees and to mostly benign pins.  Set up as the pros play it, you need a world class short game (all facets) to have a chance of scoring well.

[Jordan Wall]

 I thought earlier I heard some jibber jabber that you do not need a good short game to win 18 majors...

How is one course any different..
 

[Bob_Huntley]

Rich,

I have always felt that my poorest putt from off the green is generally better that my best chip. On the Old Course, if you see a local chipping or pitching, you know he has lost his putter.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Bob

I've always thought if you see a local putting from off the green (at the Old Course, Dornoch or any others of that ilk) you know he does not have a good short game....

Rich

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I took it as a joke as well for anyone who has looked at those green complexes dreams of short game shots there. I always treat my putter especially nice before a round at TOC. You know good whisky, a table dance, whatever the putter wants.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

I think you will find JN's poor short game is still better than most peoples best.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
    Certainly there are easy pins, as Rich pointed out, but with the way TOC plays firm and fast, most shots from 150 yards in qualify as short game in my book. I would say the lob shot isn't required much, although Rich will disagree since he can do it off concrete . The essential ingredient as pointed out also is IMAGINATION.

[Mark_Fine]

I have played TOC several times including last week and I would venture to say that it is the most demanding course in the world for the short game (at least that I have ever seen and I've seen a few), bar none!  

[Mark_F]

Most of us visitors play the Old Course from the front tees and to mostly benign pins.  Set up as the pros play it, you need a world class short game (all facets) to have a chance of scoring well.

How so, Rich?

I don't think you need as good a short game there as you would for Dornoch, where a good short game is mandatory to score well.  

As one or two others here have intimated, lag putting can do the job for you at St Andrews.  

Especially for pro's.

Ed:

I would agree that you need imagination.  But if you imagination, and are a good putter, you can get away with being a poor chipper.

[Steve Okula]

How does one come to classify Nicklaus's short game as "average"?

How did Nicklaus win 18 majors with only an "average" short game?

[Pete Lavallee]

How did Nicklaus win 18 majors with only an "average" short game?

There are currently 14 pages trying to debate that issue.

[Phil Benedict]

How did Nicklaus win 18 majors with only an "average" short game?

There are currently 14 pages trying to debate that issue.

It's amazing that this has cropped up on another thread.  I guess it confirms Jung's theory of the collective subconscious.

[rgkeller]

Mark,

I think you will find JN's poor short game is still better than most peoples best.

Not a very high standard.

[Matthew Mollica]

Matt,

Nice to know we can scour each other's posts for possible topics.

Why do you think it is a little wide of the mark?

I thought you'd find it amusing that I quoted you and started a thread after I had a quote of mine turned into a thread by you Mark. Obviously we're both sources of thought-provoking posts.  

I have pondered your quote over the last day or so, and while I don't agree with it, I see your point more clearly. I think it was Rihc above, who spoke of plateaus and little mounds, where pins can be tucked when the course is set up well. The central green plateau on 12 is a great example. The course is full of them. They can be very close to the pin on the greenskeeper's whim.

I feel you need great touch, and great imagination to your short game to score there. Obviously, no one needs a high cut lob wedge from 6inch rough to stop on a dime, but there's still loads of short game skill needed at TOC. Chips that check quick, or skip a little then stop, or run out over humps and bumps. Also the long putting that rgk and Mr. Huntley alluded to previously. Anything with a putter is short game in my book.

As for a 30 foot putt downhill on 11. You'd better have a razor sharp short game there too. I won't even mention Constantino Rocca, or a certain Valley...

Matthew

[ForkaB]

Most of us visitors play the Old Course from the front tees and to mostly benign pins.  Set up as the pros play it, you need a world class short game (all facets) to have a chance of scoring well.

How so, Rich?

I don't think you need as good a short game there as you would for Dornoch, where a good short game is mandatory to score well.  

Mark

You are probably right on that one, but there is no course in the world that I know that tests the short game as much as Dornoch.  TOC is not far behind.

Rich