[Marc Haring]

We’ve done the best links and heathland thing so what about GB parkland venues.

I know looking for a quality UK parkland course is like trying to find an Essex girl without a tattoo but I mean, didn’t we invent the whole parkland concept with Capability Brown and Humphrey Repton. So how come there are no parkland tracks to rival ANGC, Olympic or Winged Foot.  Or are there?


(Def: typical clay or brash soil, not sandy or chalk, little natural heather or gorse and dominated by deciduous  trees but not to the extent of being cut through forest.)

[Darren_Kilfara]

Ganton is a parkland course, isn't it? That would rate pretty highly. I suppose Loch Lomond would as well, even though it's not a personal favourite. Royal Worlington & Newmarket, "The World's Greatest Nine-Hole Course" (TM), would also qualify, methinks.

Cheers,
Darren

[Kevin Pallier]

I would propose the following:

Loch Lomond
Formby
Wentworth ?
Woburn
Royal Worlington & Newmarket

[Tommy Williamsen]

England has some unsung heroes that are very good.  I would incled a Colt course in Cheshire call Prestbury as among my favorites.  The bunkering is constsantly undergoing renovation because the super is a Colt expert.  
Frilford Heath is not heathland despite its name and have two fine courses of their three.
Little Aston, near Birmingham is also very good, although not quite up to its billing.
Chart Hills, a newer Smyers-Faldo work is just excellent but is pretty controversial.
Actually I think Wenworth West is more Parkland than heathland.
I don't know whether Formby is links or Parkland.  I would classify it more links than parkland even though therre are a few holes in the trees.
Ireland has some very good inland courses as well.  Mt Juliet, I think is the best.
Of Course, Gleneagles in Scotland has been good for many years.  
The others mentioned are also good choices, with Loch Lomond the pick of the litter.

[Tony_Muldoon]

this essex girl wouldn't approve of tattoo's.


I promise to go there with my camera soon. It may not be all world quality but Pat Ward Thomas called it a gem.
Thorndon Park, Colt/Alison.


Kevin mentions Woburn and surely they should be the pick of the bunch. Haven't played them but on a quick visit to the clubhouse (very disappointing) most of the trees seemed to be coniferous.  I've never seen a thread or even a mention of Woburn on here.


Mark Rowlinson will know.

[TEPaul]

Marc:

Interesting question and thread.

Like all definitions on here and in golf and golf architeture in general, the exact definition of a "parkland golf course" may be a bit debatable.

But having said that I really like your mention of Humphery Repton and Capability Brown because I think there's little question what a "parkland" estate is and what it consists of design and landscape architecture-wise.

Therefore, I see no reason to assume that a "parkland" golf course should look in any way different than a "parkland" estate (minus the golf course, of course ).

One of the features of a "parkland" course, in my opinion, is mature trees and vast vistas with loads of mown grass.

By the way, as of now, Merion East has mowed down huge areas of their rough area (although some spots of very high fescue remain). I was over at Aronimink the other day and all the rough everywhere is mown down very low and you can see the architecture and vistas through and under the mature trees.

If any US golf course is representative of a "parkland" golf course it would be Aronimink right now.

[Paul_Turner]

I think Tom is right on the money with his description of Parkland golf.  And Thorndon Park epitomised golf on an onld country deer estate.  I've seen old pics and it was stunning with big expanses of grass and dotted with ancient oak trees.  It's more wooded now, but still close.

To me Woburn is different it's more sandy woodland than park.  And Ganton and RW&N are too sandy and links like.

Some good ones to start a list going:

Thorndon Park
Canterbury
Moor Park (both courses, but obviously a moor feel too here)
Beaconsfield
Burnham Beeches
Denham
Harborne
Edgbaston
Porters Park(?)
Crews Hill
Calcot Park
Prestbury (tell us more Tommy!)
Ringway
Sandiway
Brancepeth Castle
Belvoir Park
Coombe Hill (now)
St Mellons

Yes, Wentworth has been turned into a park course.  It was more open to the heath, in places, a few decades ago.



 

[Tom Dunne]

I think the only UK parkland course I've ever played would be The Grove, a newish Kyle Phillips course north of London (reachable by the Tube, even!). We'll see it this fall as it's hosting the WGC-Amex. It's not the type of design that jumps up and grabs you by the throat, but I remember enjoying my round there very much. Ian Andrew had a post on his blog a while back about "comfort golf" (and I think there's another column in the new Aussie gca annual), and I sort of think of The Grove in that way. It's got some nice little features--a couple of old-school square greens, some nice green-to-tee tie-ins, and the land has some pleasant natural movement. It doesn't make a bid for greatness, but it's quite a good golf course with an air of low-key sophistication.

It also has one of the most stylishly modern clubhouses I've ever seen. Lots of gorgeous London women either up for a day at the spa or a round of golf. Very cosmopolitan feel to the place. No idea where The Grove would fit in among England's best parklanders, and on a weeklong trip it does not threaten to steal an afternoon from one of the Surrey heathlanders, but it's worth visiting, overall.

Just my $.02

[Marc Haring]

I would classify Woburn as woodland or forestland. Parkland golf is, as Tom States played on ‘Parkland’! I’m guessing but perhaps Capability Brown et al wanted it to resemble the natural open fields with isolated trees and occasional small areas of woodland. It would, I assume be ideal habitat for deer with areas of grazing, protection and shelter, hence the ‘deer park’.


Paul

Great list but I notice Stoke Park is absent. Is that intentional, in that like me you have a pathological hatred of corporate golf? Bowood in Wilts is a good example of classic parkland even though it is quite new and is played on genuine Capability Brown land. Could it be added on?


Tom Dunne

I haven’t played The Grove but I think it would fit the bill perfectly in that it is laid out over the parkland of some old manor I believe. Iv'e heard some good reports and I like the sound of the squared off greens touch.


Funny though. At the end of the day there's nothing to touch the US examples from what I have seen.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Paul, Prestbury is on very undulating ground and is routed brilliantly to best utilize the land without making the course so severe that playing it would be impossible to walk.  It has a great collection of Par fours.  Some long and some great short holes.  It begins with a relatively benign par five but quickly gets your attention on #2.  It is 431 yards long but if you hammer a drive you can get over the hill and are left with a relatively short shot to an elevated green. #5 measures but 324 yards.  The drive must be hit no more than 250 yards that leaves a shot to a diagonally placed green that is bunkered on the left and severly sloped on the right.  It is a great short hole.  #9 may be the strongest par for on the course (although I made a nify little par on it).  The drive is downhill on this 455 yard hole.  It doglegs to the right and if you are so inclined and can hit the tee ball long and straight, you can bite off much of the dogleg.  But alas the hole is just beginning.  The second shot is straight uphill to a sloping green with out-of-bounds on the right (there is a house).
The part of the course I love the most are holes 14-17.  Fourteen is a slight dogleg to the right about 345 yards.  The Tee shot must only go abaout 240 yards or the second shot is straight uphill and the player cannot see the green.  Fifteen is 354 yards downhill and is almost reachable.  But alas there is a bunker in the middle of the fairway about 300 yards out to catch the daring.  Sixteen is a bunkerless 397 yard dogleg to the left  The fairway runs out about 300 yards from the tee.  The green is below the player and is severly sloped on three sides.  Miss the green and you get to practice a flop shot. Seventeen is a wonderful little par three that plays over a vast wastland on glop and gore.  The green is two tiered and slopes on the back if you should go over.

The bunkering.  Mark Rowlinson and I spent about an hour with the Green Super.  Over the years he has been rennovating the bunkers, one by one.  He has a set of original drawings (the only set) but they do not detail the contours or depths of the bunkers.  But he has made a study of Colt's bunkering and has, to my way of thinking, fit the bunkers into the greens magnificently as well as place fairway bunkers in the deadliest places.  The course is well bunkered, is difficult but grand fun. I could belong there and play the course all the time and not tire of it.

[Paul_Turner]

Marc

No I forgot it!  It definitely fits the bill.  As a traditionalist it's Stoke "Poges" for me    For those who don't know the course, it's not pronounced as the Irish punk band  Although I think it would sound cooler!

I have to admit that I haven't played a parkland course in GB&I or UK that, in terms of architectural quality matches the links or heath golf.  Not sure why that is.

A course like Canterbury is an excellent example of routing over exciting terrain, but I still would have difficulty recommending to a travelling American that they should take an afternoon off from Deal and Co to play it.  Still for the locals it's outstanding.

Belvoir Park looks to have an interesting routing too, using a single ravine in multiple ways.  But I need to play it.

I wonder what's the best park course in Scotland, after Loch Lomond?

Tony

I did post a few pics of Thorndon Park here, I think you will like it.  Best hole I think was the 3rd.

[Paul_Turner]

Re Woburn

I grew up playing the Dukes and Duchess.  And the Dukes really does have several wonderful holes (members order): 3-7, 13 and the rest are, in the main, very good too.  The Duchess has some excellent holes too: 1,3,4,5 11,12,15,18

I don't really have feel for the Marquess course.  The shaping didn't really grab me.  Prefered the lay of the land greens on the D&D courses eventhough some are bit boring if not kept fast.
 
You won't see anything unique in golf architecture at Woburn, but they are beautiful that's for sure.  

[Ed Tilley]

 
Frilford Heath is not heathland despite its name and have two fine courses of their three.

Tommy,

I was a junior member at Frilford Heath and still play there regularly as my Dad is a member. There are 3 courses, the two older ones having plenty of heathland holes. The Green Course, and the original 9 holes designed by Harry Vardon in particular, is predominately heathland. As with a number of heathland courses, the growth of trees has changed the course from it's original intent.

Whilst the courses are very enjoyable, I wouldn't put them in the same league as the top Berkshire / Surrey courses. The Red course is the best of the three but the building of the new Blue course led to 5 new / significantly revised holes and the originals were much better IMO.

Ed

[James Edwards]

Chart Hills, a newer Smyers-Faldo work is just excellent but is pretty controversial.

Tommy, why do you think so?  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ed, I played the Red Course and the Green course this past June.  I really liked them but felt they were more Parkland than heathland.  I din't mean it as a criticism but only an observation.  I loved the feel of the whole club.  It seems to me that there is a better  feeling between members as British clubs than American clubs. Maybe it is because there are more competitions than at the normal US club.

James, I tend to like Smyers a lot.  I belong to one of his courses.  I think the knock I hear about him from some is that he over bunkers his courses and tends to not worry about blind shots.  To my way of thinking the bunkers, while deep, are not penal by strategic.  There is generally plenty of room off the tee to get the best angle into the green.  I also like the way he contours green fronts that allow some run-up shots.
Chart Hills, from what I heard, is "too" American.  Something like the same thing I hear about Oxforshire.

[Tommy Williamsen]

paul Turner, I would be interested to hear your thought about Ringway.  It was on a flattish peice of ground but I found that par was "protected" by some of the most severe bunkering I encountered on my last trip to England.  It made me think off the tee but required me to hit shots to a predetermined point off the tee. I like that once in a while because it makes me hit shots that not only have to be straight but requires distance control as well.  I wouldn't want to play it every day but it is a good test to see how well you can control your ball flight.

What do you think about Prestbury?  I posted my thoughts above.

[Marty Bonnar]

I guess my Home Course, Balbirnie PARK probably qualifies!

Off the top of my head, Scotland is probably quite 'well-endowed' for this kind of Course. Shame you boys mostly seem to want to only experience our COASTLINE!

I certainly think of Dalmahoy, Royal Musselburgh, Haddington all as being in 'Big Parks'.

FBD.

PS Tommy W - I DON'T think Gleneagles would appreciate being described as Parkland.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

One of the most distinguished, and the first Parkland Golf Course in Scotland and the Wolrd and also the one that claims to be the first golf club in the world after the Edinburgh golfers left Leith Links – although the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers in Muirfield dispute this – is the Royal Burgess in Barnton Edinburgh.

A classic course which offers a great game of golf. The distinctive aprons, pairs of bunkers and mature oak trees identify the character of the course.

However you’ll need an introduction and don’t forget a jacket and tie if you want to go in the club house.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Paul Turner et. al.:

The pro at my home course used to be the pro at Thorndon Park and keeps saying I should get over there.  My canned response is that it looks pretty far from SW1, where I normally take up residence on business trips.  ....should I make the effort?

Thanks,
Mark

Depends...
Clubhouse? Forget it; they sold that pile in the 70's just before it fell down - look in the bottom right of the picture and the brick s***house is where they reside now.

I'm still very much a learner about what's great and I have a personal rule to avoid reviewing courses as I don't feel I have the necessary experience.  But having said that I've played Swinley and St George's Hill and would say Thorndon Park is recognisably more top drawer work by Colt & Co.  But its Parkland not Heathland that makes a difference and it makes it hard for me to offer a comparison on quality-e.g. the ball doesn't run as much; even if this park drains well and is always playable.  I would say it probably isn't as good as the other two or even the Addington but why not judge for yourself, because after all how many other courses are that good?  When I played it I got the same sense of excitement of discovering a new (to me) great golf course.  I took along a very good golfer who couldn't believe he'd never heard of it before.
IM me next time you're over and we can check it out. You can get to Upminster or Brentwood in about 20minuts by train form the city.

Don't forget Essex has little golf history whereas south west London has such a lot. Braid left Romford for Walton Heath and Michael Bonallack has (as far as I know ) never written more than forwards for club publications about Chigwell (Hawtree/Taylor) where he learned to play and Thorndon Park his home club when he was the man.

Also in Essex you could make a day of it and try Braid's Orsett or I'll stick my neck out and say try Braid's work at Hainault Forrest. It may not be a consistently great parkland course but it has some stunning holes - Full report soon.

Even Doak wan't brave enough to venture east, go on find out what he was afraid of.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tony,

Thanks, I will IM you when I do return. Don't get over as much as I used to -- early October looking like the next time. Unfortunately have meetings at same time as Buda Cup.  Once again a case of misplaced priorities on my part.

Thanks again...

Mark

[James Edwards]

Tommy,

Ive been a member at Chart for over 10 years and it is true, a number of people do suggest its over bunkered.  I have also been a greenkeeper there so I fully understand the maintenance required to look after them on an almost daily basis.

The one thing about CH is that no one ever tires of playing the golf course.  It is unique to the county of Kent (the only other course baring any such comparisons - The London Club, designed at a similar time by the Nicklaus team.  The next nearest would most probably be East Sussex National.  My point being that it has its place in the area and the demand to play it is as high as ever.

When the course first opened it had 18 green staff, 2 mechanics, an assistant and a head super for 18 holes.  In England thats pretty rare, im sure for 18 holes.  Now, its a third of that and the course is still expected to be produced to the same quality on a daily basis!  The management has come and gone, including the owners which have changed hands many times.  Its good to see that Leaderboard (Paul Gibbons) have got a grip on the situation - who coincidentally own The Oxfordshire aswell  

One thing for certain though is that if ever you are around the area and you want to play argubaly the best golf course in our County, then I wont hesitate to take you to CH, possibly after a ickle visit to Sandwich  

[Darren_Kilfara]

Paul - re: Scottish parkland courses, would Blairgowrie count? I was just up there a few weeks ago for an open competition, and while there is some heather in places, the turf feels very parkland-ish to me. I think the Rosemount course is rather overrated - a nice start and a very strong finish, but the middle is mostly a series of barely distinguishable holes between the trees over flattish land - but Gleneagles notwithstanding, it's not as though it has a lot of competition amongst inland Scottish courses. (I really like Boat of Garten and probably enjoy it more than either course at Blairgowrie, but it's a bit quirky and almost links-like in places, and therefore both wouldn't qualify as a parkland course and wouldn't be most people's idea of a better course than the Rosemount...)

Cheers,
Darren

[Paul_Turner]

Darren

I have played Blairgowrie but it was about 25 years ago...I can't remember much.  I think it may be more in the wooded heath class?  A bit like Woburn which has patches of heather too.

Dalmahoy is a decent Scottish parkland course on an old country estate.

Tommy

Sadly I haven't played either Prestbury or Ringway.  I was going on Mark Rowlinson's pics and descriptions.  Thanks for the feedback.

[RT]

Confer with JJSE, I would enjoy playing Chart Hills and think I would not tire of it, but I wouldn't put in the same 'Americanized' style (a term bantered around over here in the UK, whatever it means) box as the Oxfordshire.

Would not confer with JJSE as I'd take Tommy to Royal Cinque Ports over Sandwich!

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