can a course be "fair" if the winner wins at 7 over?

[PThomas]

happy Friday !

of course +7 is what Hale won with at WInged Foot in 74

can a course be considered fair/a good test if such a number is the winning score?

the consensus seemed to be that the last Open at Carnasty was a poor setup...same true for Hale's Open

can a course be set up to play VERY hard and yet still be considered a proper test?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Paul -

I was there, and the conditions were brutal.

That said, to me, fair is a very subjective term.  In my mind, the lowest score won, and by a player who went on to capture two more U.S. Opens.  So in my way of thinking, it was fair.

Shinnecock's 7th on the other hand was not a a good test - more dependant upon luck of the hose.

WFW will be more than fair with its "Super Rough".  That grass is a wrist killer.  I just wish that the setup had left less rough on #6 to let the longer hitters take a poke at it.

JWK

[Mark_Fine]

Paul,
First define "fair" and "a good test" and then I will answer your question  
Mark

[Jim Sweeney]

If you can play it its fair. IMO. Doesn't make it right, however. WF in '74, Olympic #18, Southern Hills #18, Shinny #7, Hazeltine in "71, Olympia Fields in '03- try something, observe, learn, adjust. It's a process.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I cannot wait for all of the self-serving NBC commentary about how 1974 was the U.S.G.A.'s response to the final round of 1973 at Oakmont...

[PThomas]

Paul,
First define "fair" and "a good test" and then I will answer your question  
Mark

darn, I forgot to put those words in quotes

kind of  a beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing, I think

For example, I think narrow fairways - certainly more narrow than a normal tour event-- are fine, but say, 15 yards wide would be unfair

I also have no problem with rough so long that you have little chance to hit the green from it

[cary lichtenstein]

Fair but absolutely no fun...so what does beating up the best players in the world prove? That the best player won? The guy with the most stamina? Maybe

[JLahrman]

To me, fair means good shots get good results, and bad shots get what they deserve.  In my opinion this has very little with a score in relation to par.

[Brent Hutto]

Well, imagine a course that was Par 70 with one Par 5 (580 yards or so) and three Par 3's but with half a dozen Par 4's in the 470-500 yard range (not out of reason nowadays). While you're at it make the two of the Par 3's over 220 yards.

Seven over for four rounds is 287 which is a pretty low score for a 7,600-yard course with thick rough and the pins tucked, especially if the greens are firm and Stimping 12+. In other words, I think a course can be long enough and hard enough that no "unfair" features are necessary to keep scores high when the weather cooperates.

Coversely, take that same course and lengthen a couple of those Par 4's 30 yards with "Par 5" written on the scorecard and have rain every day to soften the greens and either the best players in the world will manage better than 295 over four rounds or else there's something pretty harsh about the setup.

[Phil_the_Author]

A "Fair" course can be best defined (IMHO) as one where every player faces nearly the same set of conditions and course layout on the day they play that all others do that day.

If it is brutal for one and is brutal for all that would be fair. Score is not and should not be the defining factor of the word "fair" in relation to a golf course (again IMHO).

An unfair sitaution is where a player teeing off at 8am finds sunny and benign conditions that provide him with a DISTINCT advantage over the other competitors when the wind off the ocean kicks in 5 hours later. The following day's play is a mirror of this one, yet because of the brutal afternoon conditions, those teeing off in the afternoon are delayed because of the large number of unfinished rounds from the day before, so that the person who teed off at 8am the prior day only plays 4-5 holes in the wind and must finish his round the next day when it is once again, wind-free and benign.

This was one of the main advantages afforded Tiger Woods when he destroyed Pebble Beach and the field in the Open a few years back. It wasn't fair then and it isn't fair now, but it IS the U.S. Open.

The Open is not meant to be fair... just challenging.

PLay it as it lies gentlemen...

[Mark_Fine]

Philip,
Isn't that just rub of the green?  If you play golf in the British Isles, dramatically different conditions at different times of the day is very very common.  Every competitor facing the same set of conditions is essentially impossible.  If it happens it is just luck, which as you know, is a part of the game.  

Fairness is the pursuit of eliminating luck and that would be very bad for the game of golf.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

That was really my point!

Did you get the photo I found of Jackson Heights Golf Club?

[Padraig Dooley]

Firstly golf is not fair, dealing with this is part of the charm of the game. Secondly it shouldn't matter what the winner shoots in relation to par, he just shoots the lowest score, par can be a good, bad or great score depending on conditions.

[Mark_Fine]

Philip,
We agree!  Yes I did get that photo.  Very cool!!
Mark

[Jay Flemma]

I sure didnt think so...

http://www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner/index.asp?newsID=3975

[Phil_the_Author]

Jay,

Your opinion about how you see the Open set-up at Winged Foot is well-thought out, just a bit incorrect!  

Mike Davis is definitely putting his mark upon the course set-up in taking over for Tom Meeks, but what most commentators are missing is that the VAST majority of this years set-up was done by Tom Meeks.

He is the one who worked with the club in creating the fairway lines and dimensions and these were cut and in place since early last year.

Where Mike's work will show up the most will be on the greens. He is not planning on turning them into cement, rather he wants them to be about 11 and no more, with several greens in the 10-10&1/2 range. By doing this the choice of pin positions and areas of the greens that can be used will be greatly increased. It will also allow him to consider using areas on the greens that have now been restored and recovered (think back left corner of #10).

The added length and new tee box on #12 was the idea of the club, not the USGA. Mike wants to find ways to have the course play as the architect designed it. Tilly made the 12th hole to be a reachable in two shot par-5. In 1929 both Espinaoza and Jones went for it in two all 5 days. In 1997, both Tiger and Davis went for it in two on Sunday and each ended up in the rough just right of the right-hand greenside bunker. Both took 4 more shots to get their ball in the hole from 50 feet away and made bogey.

I believe that Mike is on the right track for how to create a challenging course to "define" the best player in the world and it will be interesting to see how his ideas impact and ashape this quest in years to come.

[Ian Andrew]

Paul,

What does fairness have to do with golf?

When is a winning score the measure of a course?

[PThomas]

Ian - perhaps "relative fairness" would be a better term

for ex, don't you think fairways that are 15 yds wide are unfair?

and if a course produced a winning score of say 20 over in normal weather conditions, wouldn't that be a bit ridiculous?

[Ian Andrew]

Paul,

Yes I think 15 yard fairways are unfair, but I wouldn't call the current US Open set up unfair - just boring.

I want the majors to identify the best player. I don't think the US Open does that anymore. I think it identifies the survivor. So I don't like watching the US Open anymore.

No course - no matter how tough - will produce a score more than a stroke or two over par. Carnoustie proved there is always someone who will cope in seemly impossible situations.

These guys are good  

[Bill_Yates]

If someone wins by shooting -22, is the course too fair?

To compare fairness to scoring is (How shall I say it?), I know, "not fair."

[Patrick_Mucci]

How was WFW set up unfairly in 1974 ?

What were the fairway widths ?

What was "brutal" about the set-up ?

And, wasn't the golf course in 1974 the product of the Open in 1959 ?

[Scott Stearns]

in golf, fair=same for everybody, as near as weather and nature will allow.

its the us open, not the pizza hut classic.

quit whining and hit it.

[PThomas]

How was WFW set up unfairly in 1974 ?

What were the fairway widths ?

What was "brutal" about the set-up ?

And, wasn't the golf course in 1974 the product of the Open in 1959 ?

Patrick -- everything I've read about the 74 setup said it was basically an overreaction against Miller's Miracle the year before

I would love to hear from someone who was either there as a spectator or official to confirm or rebut that

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul T,

I think that made for good press, but, what specifically was unfair about WFW's presentation ?

What about the golf course conditions and/or setup made it unfair or brutal ?

Neil Regan might be a good source for this info.
Glenn Spencer has declared that my personal observations are invalid, so my commentary wouldn't be helpful.

[PThomas]

for one, you always hear the story about how Jack putted off the first green , and the car not damaging one of the greens, and the fact that the winner shot 7 over Patrick

I'll try to remember where and if I read that the fairways were narrowed, etc......