[Tony_Muldoon]

I'm curious--in the UK, do the forward tees make for courses that don't set up well?  I'm thinking not so much of very low markers like Michael and Glenn and more of people like myself who are high single digit or low double digit players (say, 6-13).  I'd hate to play from a set of tees that give you a skewed perception of the golf course.  

I'll offer an opinion here. In my experience the majority of traditional courses in the UK only add on average about 300 yards moving from the Yellow to the White (Pete it's the other way round). So the average par 4 would gain about 20 yards, just enough added spice to make a slightly less familiar hole more interesting on 'pressure cooking' medal days.  These are mainly played in summer where the ball will fly/run that bit further.

Some courses which have more room actually change the Pars for certain holes and are slightly easier to play to your handicap from the longer distances e.g. Woodhall and Swinley.  

However you will now see some pretty drastic back tees slotted in to try and cope with he latest technology - often there's a few kept only for the Captains Day.

[Sean Leary]

Tim,

In many cases we're talking about the difference between a 5800 yard course and stepping back to play at 6200. We're not talking 7400 yards of insanity here. And yes, in most cases you feel a bit cheated playing from so far forward.

Also, on links courses 6200 yards plays very very short(wind dependent).  I'm not even complaining about going all the way back on some courses, just something in the 6500 to 6700 area would be fine.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony --

I don't understand your point. Try again?

Dan

I'm just curious how this all came about; my point is I don't fully understand why the two nations have developed such different attitudes to golf. I know there are historical reasons but they don't sit easily with my preconceptions of both societies.

Firstly growing up in England and taking the game up relatively late, I was surprised and delighted to find that e.g. Muirfield would let me play - it was certainly not what my life's experience had led me to expect because I'm not really the guy who 'knows the right people'.  

I was even more surprised when, through GCA, I discovered that there was precious little point planning a golf holiday in the USA because I wouldn't be allowed on the kind of courses I would want to play.

So having got my head round those facts I find the respective attitudes about who makes the choice of which tees I play off equally surprising.  Until this thread I hadn't understood that in America the individual gets to choose this. (It also seems that until this thread many Americans hadn't realised the situation in the UK).

 But is it true that if I was your guest at your historic members only club the standard procedure  would be to ask me which tees I would like to play off?

I just find this situation surprises me and I'm trying to fit it into my expectations.


Now based on golf, which society is the more democratic?  Not an easy one to answer.

[Dan Kelly]

Tony --

I don't understand your point. Try again?

Dan

I'm just curious how this all came about; my point is I don't fully understand why the two nations have developed such different attitudes to golf. I know there are historical reasons but they don't sit easily with my preconceptions of both societies.

Firstly growing up in England and taking the game up relatively late, I was surprised and delighted to find that e.g. Muirfield would let me play - it was certainly not what my life's experience had led me to expect because I'm not really the guy who 'knows the right people'.  

I was even more surprised when, through GCA, I discovered that there was precious little point planning a golf holiday in the USA because I wouldn't be allowed on the kind of courses I would want to play.

So having got my head round those facts I find the respective attitudes about who makes the choice of which tees I play off equally surprising.  Until this thread I hadn't understood that in America the individual gets to choose this. (It also seems that until this thread many Americans hadn't realised the situation in the UK).

 But is it true that if I was your guest at your historic members only club the standard procedure  would be to ask me which tees I would like to play off?

I just find this situation surprises me and I'm trying to fit it into my expectations.


Now based on golf, which society is the more democratic?  Not an easy one to answer.

Thanks. I see what you're saying now.

I don't think there's any question that golf is more "democratic" in the British Isles than it is here in the USA.

I am not a member of a club, and never have been -- historic or otherwise. But on my too-infrequent visits to historic (or otherwise) members-only clubs in the USA: Yes, we -- the member and I -- have been free to play whichever set of tees we chose.

[Tom_Doak]

If I owned a golf course I probably wouldn't put tee markers out at all.  You could play from anywhere you wanted, but I'd try to hide some of the back tees so you couldn't find them unless you knew about them.  (We've done that pretty well a couple of times.)

But for those who get all p.o.'d about having to play from the regular boxes in Scotland and England, I say, don't go if it bothers you so much.  Those courses are already too crowded with Americans who don't understand the game.  If you can't stoop to playing the middle tees some of the time, you have too high an opinion of yourself.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivasschmidt said, "The great and powerful, all seeing and all knowing Oz has spoken...

Individuals can't make their own choices.  Matt, that's an awefully slippery slope you're on.  I hope you're "old school" and not wearing SoftSpikes!"

Dave -- My point is a simple one -- the problem with individuals making their own choices is that too many of them make the wrong choice and as a result the people stuck behind them have to watch the Baatan Death March for the duration of the day.

Like I said before -- if someone is really a low handicap have them go down to the range with a staff person andafter a sufficient warm-up let them demonstrate their alleged proficiency. If they can do that and at the same time keep pace of play within the allotted time frame so be it -- let'em play the back markers. If they can't -- it's the front tees or a return trip to the car they came in. Oz has now spoken.

P.S. What Tom Doak suggested is not really asking people too much to do -- the middle tees are a nice diversion and can introduce some playing angles / shots you don't see from the other tee boxes.

[Padraig Dooley]

I have played in a few matches at Ballybunion where we played from the 'Tombstones' which were the tee signs. There was a time when where you played from and what you scored didn't matter, just that you had a good match and you enjoyed yourself.

[Dan Kelly]

But for those who get all p.o.'d about having to play from the regular boxes in Scotland and England, I say, don't go if it bothers you so much.  Those courses are already too crowded with Americans who don't understand the game.  If you can't stoop to playing the middle tees some of the time, you have too high an opinion of yourself.

Tom --

I haven't detected that anyone on this thread is all p.o.'d about having to play from the regular boxes in Scotland and England. Have you?

Dan

Modified: I guess I forgot about Reply #2.

[Sean Leary]

P.S. What Tom Doak suggested is not really asking people too much to do -- the middle tees are a nice diversion and can introduce some playing angles / shots you don't see from the other tee boxes.

Matt,

When you travel around the US to play new courses, do you ever play the white tees, particularly if you are only going to play it once? If you do, kudos to you...

If I were going to get to play a course numerous times, I think there is great fun in playing a more forward set of tees. If I am only going to get to play it one time, I would rather play it from the appropriate tees, that is all.  

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Fair question -- when I play a course only once -- which often happens when I travel -- I do like to play the back tees because it allows me to see the entire course from what the architect envisioned.

I have to add that I am a fast player so me playing those tees will not interfere with the pace of play of others.

Now, I have to say there have been times when the back tees have been closed to all play or have had construction issues -- sometimes my visit is a bit early of an official opening and I then play the boxes that have been provided for play.

I'll say this again -- people have this idea that their $$$ should allow them to play where they want -- when they want. That's bogus because too often the people who want to play such markers could not hit Kansas from the Oklahoma stateline and I don't want to be behind that parade because some joker wants to "experience" what Tigers goes through.

[Sean Leary]

Matt,

I agree.  IMO, links courses often play particularly short, and if every par 4 is close to drivable, that eliminates some of the fun. A links course at 6100 yards is often the equivalent of 5600 yards here...Too short for a good player.

[Nick Pozaric]

Let people play whichever tees they want -- so long as they stay on pace.

exactly!

[ForkaB]

A few random additional comments:

1.  When in Rome, do as the Romans do.  At most UK golf courses the members are not allowed to play off the Medal tees excpet in competitions.  How do you think they feel when a group of visitors wangles their way onto the back tees, particularly if they are not capabl;e of playing from back there?

2.  Take Tom Doak's advice very seriously.  Enjoy the courses you play from wherever you play them.  Even if you think you are God's gift to golf, you'll find that the best links courses will expose some part of your game, even if you are hitting wedges into most of the par-4s.  Hey, even Matt Ward sort of agrees with us!

3.  I've acutally had some opposite experiences, particuarly on some top courses in the US.  Some members seem duty bound to push me to the very tips, even to tees which are behind the tips and not yet in play!  They think I want to play the full course.  Well, not really--somedays yes, somedays no.  Even if it is a course I'll only play once in my life, I think I am capable of extrapolating a front tee expereince back to what it would be like from the back tees.  If I wanted to.  Frankly, even though I am long enough to not embarrass myself from the tips at just about any course, I'd enjoy my game a wee bit forward.  480 yard holes with 230 yard carries off the tee and 200 yard 2nd shots to sloping greens get tiring and boring after a while.

3.  Poster Child for middle tees--the Old Course.  Nobody on this site will ever play TOC from the tips, unless they qualify for some future Open.  If you played from them on a normal day, your line from the 2nd tee would be over the heads of 100 happy people on the Ladies Putting green.  On the 14th you would be teeing off from the Eden Course and lucky to make it back onto the real course into the wind.  Most visitors play TOC from about 6300 yards.  How many come home disappointed?

4.  This is all part of a vicious cycle of money and expectations.  When one played Pebble Beach for $35 or Turnberry for 7 quid (and neither would let you go to the tips), who really cared?  It was just a game of golf and you played by the rules and had fun.  Now, when you are forking out nearly $500, somehow "playing the whole course" seems to some to be a god given entitlement.  By all means, if you want to play the tips, ask politely if you can, and if you can't, ENJOY!  There are a lot worse things in life than playing from the yellow boxes at North Berwick on a fine summer day.

[Tony_Muldoon]

4.  This is all part of a vicious cycle of money and expectations.  

I can't help but relate this to a recent poster on here (   ) who described the thrill of skiing down a famously challenging run with his guide, even though it was far above his ability.  

In golf one person’s choice affects all the others on the course much more so than other sports (although better skiers do complain about people on the wrong slopes getting in their way.)  Here is clearly a case where giving an individual the power to decide gives him the opportunity to act in his own self interest and not in the best interest of the larger community and arguably not in the best interest of golf.  

Maybe there’s something to be said for letting the 'great and the good' make decisions and set a few rules for us poor individuals because they know best?  Even if the greatest happiness for the greatest number will frustrate some of the more skilled and or adventurous types.

Individual freedom versus the state discuss.  

[Brent Hutto]

For my part, if I get to England and some club or another wants me to play from 6,100 yards I'll be thrilled.

At home I have to try and cajole my playing partners to move up with me to the tees that let me hit irons into Par 4's. It would be kind of neat for a change to be the guy who wants to play the "right" tees.

[Glenn Spencer]

Having to play the middle tees at Pebble Beach, while paying $450. I am sure someone will come up with something, but at this moment, this is the ONLY situation in America, where you walk into a store and pay $450 for something and don't get what you want. Last Saturday because of the group I was playing with and was forced to play a fast course from the middle tees, to say the least my score was gaudy through 15 holes. With the equipment advances and the ball, the middle tees are not where I like to play from. 15 years ago, no problem, but with all that has been afforded me in the way of distance and accuracy in the last 6, it feels like cheating. On a great course, I would not want to do that to her.

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:

Odd they MADE you play the middle tees at Pebble.  Now I am no ego-fueled back-tees only guy - hell I'll play whatever tees the group wants damn near always and the tips are usually no fun for me - but at special courses like this, where I have watched my idols play so many times, well... I kinda want to play the same course they did.  You might recall the discussion re doing this at Augusta...

Anyway, last time I played Pebble, they moved us all to the middle tees, and I just went and played back anyway.  The starter tried to stop me with "excuse me sir, those are for low handicappers only" to which I replied "well how do you know I'm not?"  I then explained I had played them several times before, and promised not to delay play.  He was pretty disgruntled but he did let me play back... Talk about pressure on the tee shot though....  

In any case, re the issue at hand and how they do this in the UK and Ireland, well... I just have always figured that's their tradition and I've never sweated it.  Oh, those are special courses also, but I always figured it's their rules, I'm there as a guest, I do what I'm told.  Never felt like I was missing anything...

TH

[David Ober]

Dan:  but if a guy sucks and shouldn't be at the back tees, he is automatically not keeping pace, since he will be hitting many more (bad) shots than a true low handicapper

I know bad golfers who play faster than some good golfers.

I say: Keep pace. I don't care HOW you do it; just do it. And if I'm in charge of the course, I'll warn you, ahead of time, that you must keep pace, or I will force you to keep pace. I'll make you skip a hole, or I'll force you to move to forward tees. But until you show me you can't keep pace, you're free to tee the ball where you like.

I know MANY "bad" golfers who player faster than quite a few good golfers.

Now I'm not talking 35 handicaps. I'm talking guys in the 15 - 20 range. They play quickly, observe the rules, and leave the course in better shape than they found it.

I can think of two guys (at least) out of my 12 player "scratch group" at my club who are much slower than most 15 handicaps I know...

[David Ober]

P.S. What Tom Doak suggested is not really asking people too much to do -- the middle tees are a nice diversion and can introduce some playing angles / shots you don't see from the other tee boxes.

And can result in long hitter having to hit iron off of 3/4 of the tees. No thank you.

BTW, I'm not one of those long hitters, but I play with plenty of them. If I travelled half way around the world and paid $100 to play a top course in the U.K. and they wouldn't let me play the "back tees," forcing me to hit 3-iron all day, that would put a significant dent in the fun factor, that's for sure...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Glenn, Tom & David if everyone felt the same as you and were allowed to play off the back tees I would guess at least further hour to an hour and a half would be added to each round. Would this be more like buying what you want?  

Or perhaps in America you could be offered a premium rate, only available to 0-5 handicappers, and would be allowed to tee off during the first hour of the day from the tips for an extra hundred bucks?

Pebble have reached the same decision most British clubs have for the same reasons – keeping the pace of play up –ostensibly for your benefit!

I find this curiouser and curiouser.  

Rihc has become one of us and can see the benefits of being told what to do!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tony - if I am the Tom you are addressing, well please understand that it's only at VERY special courses, where I can walk in the footsteps of my idols, that I'd ever care about playing the back tees.  Thus my stance at Pebble.  But that is a public course and I had paid my freight (well, in this case had it paid for me, but you get the gist I hope).  

I have never once batted an eye at tee choices in the UK.  I was just happy to be allowed to play at all.  And yes, I too think Rich is right.

TH

[Mike Benham]

P.S. What Tom Doak suggested is not really asking people too much to do -- the middle tees are a nice diversion and can introduce some playing angles / shots you don't see from the other tee boxes.

And can result in long hitter having to hit iron off of 3/4 of the tees. No thank you.

BTW, I'm not one of those long hitters, but I play with plenty of them. If I travelled half way around the world and paid $100 to play a top course in the U.K. and they wouldn't let me play the "back tees," forcing me to hit 3-iron all day, that would put a significant dent in the fun factor, that's for sure...

David -

That's a lie, you don't carry a 3-iron ...

And second, the top courses are more than $ 100.  

We played TOC from the forward tees, 6,100 yards and hit driver off of every non-par-3 tee.  

As Tom Doak said:  "Those courses are already too crowded with Americans who don't understand the game.  If you can't stoop to playing the middle tees some of the time, you have too high an opinion of yourself."

You go over there knowing what to expect ... it isn't a big deal.

Mike

[Glenn Spencer]

TH,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, (my fault) but that was a 'for instance.' I have not played Pebble. I have had the same stuff happen to me before, with the starters, it can be nerve-wracking. I remember standing in the fairway on a par 5 and having a 2-iron from about 245 middle, 235 carry over water to the green and there were people on the green. This marshall made it seem like I was out of my mind for waiting and gave me all kinds of grief. I hit a good shot, but it hit one foot below the wall and got wet.

[Glenn Spencer]

Tony,

Now there is  a solution!!! I don't think it is fair, but I would still take it. It is worth it in my mind. I really do like that idea.

[ForkaB]

David O, et. al

Just to reinforce what Mike Benham said, if you play Dornoch from the front tees (about 6200), you'll hit driver on all 14 par 4s and 5s, unless the wind is blowing and you can reach 1 or 15  with a lesser club.  This is assuming you can carry the driver 250 or so.  Even if you are a real bomber you still use driver on 12 of the holes ( saw Els try to drive #5 (360) but it is an insane shot requiring hitting a 5-yard wide alley at the front of the green).  If the wind is blowing, any and all of your scratch golfer group will have all they can handle.  A few might go under par (70) if they really are on form and the greens are not shaved, but more than a few will be well into the 80's.  Trust me.

Rich

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