[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

This came up in another topic, but interested me enough to start amother topic.
Growing up in the UK, the back tees were considered as something of  aholy grail as most clubs insisted you did not use them...and when you did, you had to endure the wrath of "THE COMMITEE"

What is the situation in the rest of the world.?..here in the US they dont seem to care where you play from, even if the tee markers are placed anywhere..you appear to be able to play from where you want...which certainly makes sense.
Even at very illustious courses I have been able to play from whichever tees I chose to play from.

Any opinions?

[ForkaB]

Michael

It's getting better in the UK. At a number of the top courses you can play off the back tees if you inquire discretely beforehand and have a reasonably low handicap.  Some (e.g. Turnberry, Cruden Bay, Portsalon) let you play from where you want to, regardless.

My take is that the whole "medal tee" cult goes back to the days when medals were something special, and there was a sort of ritual in going backwards from where you usually played to exotic sites with unfamiliar angles to the fairway and then to the green, all with a card and pencil in your pocket.  Quite frankly, I still enjoy this ritual, and if I were allowed to play the medal tees every time I played my home courses, some of the mystique of the game would be lost.

[Glenn Spencer]

MWP,

I would ask for my money back if I wasn't able to play the tees that I wanted to. At least within reason. I think it was the Augusta thread from a while ago, I wouldn't have much interest in playing a famous course from anywhere but the back tees. Those 7900 Ocean Course tees, maybe not, but I at least what to play from where the tournaments are held. It is the most frustrating thing in the world to go to a great golf course and have the member tell you where you are playing from. I can't stand it, ruins the whole day for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Some people have blue-tee-itis -- a severe condition of macho in which high handicap types think they can handle the demands of such layouts.

Frankly, most clubs should chicken wire the back tees and keep people towards the middle or even in front of them.

The stance taken by many clubs in the UK and Ireland is certainly worth discussing because the inane idea here in the States is that people can play whatever tee they want to if they are footing the tab. Having money is one thing -- having game is quite another.

P.S. Forget the silly handicap cards -- if people want to play back tees have a staff member watch them when warming-up. If they can't carry a driver 200 yards in the air consistently every time let them know the front markers are available and nothing else.

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt,

I have no problem with the evaluation. I just don't think the course should make it so that there is no choice.

[Matt_Ward]

Glenn:

I wish that could be true but people here in the States carry with them a sense of "entitlement." They THINK they have game when all they have is Amex, Visa or Mastercard.

The back tees are for players who can truly PLAY -- not dream about playing or wish they could play, etc, etc, etc.

I was at Whistling Straits not too long ago and came remember vividly a foursome that was totally CLUELESS about their responsibilities because they were ENAMORED with "where's the back tee" syndrome.

Management should make the call -- even if it happens to be arbitrary -- on who gets to play from the tips.

I have no issue with people who can play and can keep up a good pace to keep the overall play moving. The idea that the individual golfer can alone decide what tee to play doesn't add up much when they can't play and they can't keep pace.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

That general restriction on the other side is one of the oddest and sometimes most maddening restrictions about golf on the other side. To me it makes no sense at all. There's nothing like that in this country that I've ever heard of and it works just fine.

[Dan Kelly]

Let people play whichever tees they want -- so long as they stay on pace.

[Glenn Spencer]

It works the reverse though, it is just as annoying when someone just assumes that you are a hack and have 'back tee itis' I can remember this guy in the group behind me climbing all over me for playing the back tees at the Ocean Course and I obliged him pretty well by making a mess of 1 and making 6. I saw him in the pro shop at the turn (it was raining) and he started asking me all these questions and I thought to myself, I shot 39 with a double on the easiest non par 5 hole, what tees am I supposed to be playing?

[Jim Adkisson]

Let people play whichever tees they want -- so long as they stay on pace.

I can't agree more...especially after playing a 5 hour round on Tuesday...the foursome in front of ours was playing from "the tips" and were 2 holes behind the group ahead of them by the turn...Marshall Dillon should have moved those boys up to the red tees until they caught up with the group ahead of them!...One of my biggest beefs is with the guys who play from the tees that are inappropriate to their skill level.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

i have np problem at all with making players play from the appropriate tees...that makes sense
What does not, however, is the blanket cannot use the back tee mentality that exists at some UK clubs.
I spent way too many evenings in front of club commitees as a youth stating my case to no avail..

[Tony_Muldoon]

Let people play whichever tees they want --

I can't agree more....

I find this one a little strange- it seems that's the American view and you find the English/European view a little odd.  

Over here you can play just about any course you want as long as you play from where the members/owner thinks is wise.  

Over there you can only play where the member personally invites you to. OR (the real difference is when) the customer really is king, when paying is an option you can play exactly where you like.

Vive yet another difference.  

I just don't see which is the more 'democratic'.

[Pete Lavallee]

For those of you who haven't been across the pond, the policy that Michael is talking about is very unusual to Americans. There will be two sets of tees, the forward tees are white and the back tees are yellow. However, you're not allowed to play from the back tees; why on earth do they even set them out? Some Clubs will allow you to play them with permission, others are vehemently opposed to anyone, no matter how competent, venturing back there.

I had this discussion with the father of the British Amatuer Champ at St Enodoc, whose Club did not allow play from the yellow tees. He understood my concern but couldn't think of a single practical reason for the policy other than it being a tradition the Club would just have to uphold.

[Dan Kelly]

Tony --

I don't understand your point. Try again?

Dan

[Cliff Hamm]

Heard a story once that fits this thread. Golfer is at  a US Open venue and wants to play the course the way the pros play it so he heads to the back tees.  Someone says  "I thought you wanted to play it the way the pros do?".  He responds that indeed is his desire. He is told to play from the whites and he might have a similar shot to the green as the pros.

[Bob_Huntley]

In previous posts on this subject I have agreed that the British attitude is fairly old fashioned, however if you can't shoot even par from the fronts, why on earth clamour to play the backs?

Bob

[tonyt]

Tony --

I don't understand your point. Try again?

Dan

One element I believe in his point is that in the UK, you are frustrated when visiting the club when they tell you you must play from the tees of the day. But in the US, you don't have that frustration because as a visitor, not a guest, you aren't even allowed inside the gate.

I think in nations where you can't play the tips, it is more likely at courses where at the American equivalent, you can't even come in.

[PThomas]

Dan:  but if a guy sucks and shouldn't be at the back tees, he is automatically not keeping pace, since he will be hitting many more (bad) shots than a true low handicapper

[Dan Kelly]

I think in nations where you can't play the tips, it is more likely at courses where at the American equivalent, you can't even come in.

Thank you.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan:  but if a guy sucks and shouldn't be at the back tees, he is automatically not keeping pace, since he will be hitting many more (bad) shots than a true low handicapper

I know bad golfers who play faster than some good golfers.

I say: Keep pace. I don't care HOW you do it; just do it. And if I'm in charge of the course, I'll warn you, ahead of time, that you must keep pace, or I will force you to keep pace. I'll make you skip a hole, or I'll force you to move to forward tees. But until you show me you can't keep pace, you're free to tee the ball where you like.

[Dan Kelly]

In previous posts on this subject I have agreed that the British attitude is fairly old fashioned, however if you can't shoot even par from the fronts, why on earth clamour to play the backs?

Bob

So that the hazards off the tee will be in the range to challenge your tee shots.

[PThomas]

Dan:  but if a guy sucks and shouldn't be at the back tees, he is automatically not keeping pace, since he will be hitting many more (bad) shots than a true low handicapper

I know bad golfers who play faster than some good golfers.

I say: Keep pace. I don't care HOW you do it; just do it. And if I'm in charge of the course, I'll warn you, ahead of time, that you must keep pace, or I will force you to keep pace. I'll make you skip a hole, or I'll force you to move to forward tees. But until you show me you can't keep pace, you're free to tee the ball where you like.

problem is Dan that your solution rarely occurs

I wish some of the people who play these tees when their game obviously warrents otherwise would PLEASE explain to me why they do so...I just don't get it

[Tim Pitner]

People with enough game ought to be able to play from the back tees.  A course in my area used to prohibit anyone from playing the back tees unless they received permission--it seems like that could work in the UK as well.  I assume it would be based on handicap rather than an actual demonstration of one's ability.  

I'm curious--in the UK, do the forward tees make for courses that don't set up well?  I'm thinking not so much of very low markers like Michael and Glenn and more of people like myself who are high single digit or low double digit players (say, 6-13).  I'd hate to play from a set of tees that gives you a skewed perception of the golf course.  

I don't remember encountering this issue in Ireland.  

[Peter_Collins]

Just an observation, but in my experience the hacks with the worst case of back tee-itis are usually wearing black ankle socks with black shoes and shorts, smoking a cigar the size of a babies' forearm, and have a goatee.

[Pete Lavallee]

Tim,

In many cases we're talking about the difference between a 5800 yard course and stepping back to play at 6200. We're not talking 7400 yards of insanity here. And yes, in most cases you feel a bit cheated playing from so far forward.

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