It's time to stop building 19th holes..

[DMoriarty]

David M.,

It is rare that you don't substantiate your position on an issue. In this case, you show a pretty picture, complete you post with a sarcastic remark and don't address any of JK's issues as to why or why not 19th holes are bad.

You feeling OK?

I'm fine, thanks for asking.  Maybe I am getting a little bored with the website in general and with Barney's agenda in particular.   Just all getting a bit cliched for my tastes.  

Plus I think that this particular 19th hole pretty much speaks for itself, especially if one has actually seen how unobtrusive it is to the rest of the course.  

Wayne Kozon pretty much covered it in his post, but since you want me to exercise my fingers here it goes . . .  This 19th doesnt make the 18 hole walk longer because it plays outside the loop of the course; doesnt slow up play for the same reason; doesnt enter into handicapping or the 18 hole bet; it certainly is not the finishing hole.  

Barney hates everything about 19th holes . . . here are a few things I liked about this one: This 19th is a good hole and fun to play . . . it provided a less experienced shaper a great hands on experience and a chance to show his stuff . . . It gives one a chance for a quick warm-up without venturing to the range . . . It also gives a foursome something to do while waiting for the foursome in front to clear the first hole, or while waiting for fellow golfers after the round . . . it is situated directly below the after-round gathering/drinking spot so it provides the potential for a heckling, betting gallery. . .   It is a great place to settle grudge matches or bets . . . It provides the place some flexibility of another hole has to be temporarily shut down avoided.  

I can easily imagine situations where a 19th hole would not work at all, but a blanket dismissal of the concept is much to draconian for my tastes.  
______________________________________

Barney,  to answer your question, I dont think a 19th needs to be the least best on "the course."   It fact it isnt really part of the course at all.  "The course" ought not to be evaluated by some silly notion of the quality of each individual hole.  Unless the 19th could actually replace an existing hole without diminishing the whole, your analysis makes little sense.

[John Kavanaugh]

Treehouse Gang,

Who cares how many holes are at the golf course?

3, 6, 14, 20, 27, so what.

The USGA can calculate handicap for 9 holes and 18, why not more than or less than 18?

Golf is one hole at a time, maybe we should have individual hole handicaps.

Troy

Troy,

Don't you think it's nice to have some idea how long you are going to be at the course when a friend calls you up to play.  When I was a kid we use to play till dark no matter how many holes that took...now I got people who want to know when I will be home.  What is wrong with a little structure.

David,

Why do you think this is an agenda driven thread and what would my agenda be...Isn't it obvious that 19th holes have suddenly become all the rage and there is a danger of them being well over done.  We now have one at Erin Hills that I promise you will have no choice but to play...why suddenly 19..I don't like it and I apologize if that offends anyone.

[ForkaB]

Dave

I can't see any "agenda" in John's post other than to be provocative and make people think.  His theory that the current fad for "19th" holes is just that (i.e. a fad) is plausible.  Why not debate and discuss rather than mindlessly dis, just becasue it is John?

PS--every course/club that plays in the spirit of the game already has a 19th hole.  It's called the 1st.

[Mike McGuire]

19 th holes make wonderful practice areas. Course conditions, close to the clubhouse, away from the range.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Could this be the oldest?  It’s a par 3. Apparently the club aren’t sure if it was ever in play as an alternative 18th but it’s an extra hole now. The club are improving the drainage on it and it’s currently closed for play.   Dates from pre WW2 (or earlier than that!).

Anyone know which course?






PS Who was the first to start building them in modern times?  Was it Doak?

(Before this thread disapears - A. The Addington )

[John Kirk]

There you go, another good reason to have a 19th hole.  Anytime a hole needs to be taken out of service, the 19th hole can be used as a substitute, so that the integrity of the 18 hole round can be maintained.

Stanford GC has a 19th hole, a little uphill par 3 that is normally used as a practice hole.  I remember the 14th hole being taken out of service for a couple months because of flood damage, and the 19th hole was brought into service in its place.

[Joe Hancock]

Dave M.,

Certainly your latest post has much more merit than a "finger exercise". Thank you for the effort, both mentaly and physically.

I especially like the insight concerning the opportunity for a shaper. Somehow that is a soft spot in my heart.....

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

PS Who was the first to start building them in modern times?  Was it Doak?

The only 19th I have ever seen is at Forest Creek...A Fazio that I believe pre-dates the Doak.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Try the Bye hole (19th) at Knollwood C.C. in Elmsford, NY.

120 Yards downhill back to the clubhouse after a great Raynor Dog Leg 18th.

It is the only was back to the clubhouse.

JWK

[John Kavanaugh]

I know that the fact that I enjoy playing by the rules also is seen as some kind of agenda madness but I was just wondering....Can you play the "bye" hole at Erin Hills and remain within the rules.  It does sound kinda sweet to have the chance to work on your game between nines..but on the other hand it also seems like a place to waste a swing or a putt.

The other thing I'm curious about is this idea of using the hole as a warm up or practice hole....In the interest of etiquette wouldn't you always have to yield to a group on 18...I can just see being down in a game and thinking I had the 19th to press only to find the tee occupied by someone not interested in the practice facilities.

note:  I hate people who practice on the course when an excellent practice facility is available.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

In general I agree with your premise.  The 19th hole trend is somewhat gimmicky, and I certainly didn't start it ... Weiskopf and Morrish built a few of them 10+ years ago, there is one at Double Eagle, in fact I think you can play to it after EITHER 9 or 18.  And Hurdzan has a couple of alternate holes in the middle of Devil's Pulpit.  But, as I say, I'd rather just build the 18 best holes.

At Stone Eagle the 19th was clearly a cool hole and it was on the way back to the clubhouse.  I would have used it as the 18th or maybe even the first hole, but the client was having none of that, so it's the 19th and I'm fine with that.  I doubt it's the worst par-3 on the course.

At Sebonack the 19th hole crosses in front of the first green, so it will probably only be used late in the day when there's nobody playing #1.  It is a great view toward Hog Neck and it's one of the coolest greens on the course contour-wise.  The client wanted to put the first green there, but had we done so there would be a lot of balls rattling around the pro shop roof at National ... and with the clubhouse so close, that corner really made no sense in the routing, except as a 19th.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

I think with the demographic of each of those memberships they will work fine.   What do you think of the use of the "bye" hole at Erin Hills between 9 and 10...Doesn't it just seem like an oops...

[Wayne_Kozun]

The other thing I'm curious about is this idea of using the hole as a warm up or practice hole....In the interest of etiquette wouldn't you always have to yield to a group on 18...I can just see being down in a game and thinking I had the 19th to press only to find the tee occupied by someone not interested in the practice facilities.

note:  I hate people who practice on the course when an excellent practice facility is available.

At my club, which is Scarboro G&CC by the way, you are not supposed to practice on the 19th hole, but people occasionally do it anyway, yielding to folks who are coming off of 18.

The 19th green was originally the green of the par-4 18th.  The green was kept and a new tee constructed to make a 130 yd par 3.

I have no problem with practicing on the course as long as you are not holding up play.  IMHO this is one of the benefits of belonging to a club.  Go out late in the evening and work on your game - try hitting different shots into the green such as low runners or pitch shots or whatever.  

[DMoriarty]

Isn't it obvious that 19th holes have suddenly become all the rage and there is a danger of them being well over done.

Just about everything good or interesting or creative or new gets "well over done," but not over done well.  Nonetheless, it is a mistake to wholly condemn the concept just because most designers aren't talented enough to pull it off.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I find Erin GC's choice interesting because it means they really built a 19-hole golf course.  No one is going to skip a "bye hole" in the middle of the round on a public course.  So, either they couldn't decide what hole to throw out, or that's the weakest hole but there was a really long walk from 9 to 10.

[Anthony Butler]

There you go, another good reason to have a 19th hole.  Anytime a hole needs to be taken out of service, the 19th hole can be used as a substitute, so that the integrity of the 18 hole round can be maintained.

Stanford GC has a 19th hole, a little uphill par 3 that is normally used as a practice hole.  I remember the 14th hole being taken out of service for a couple months because of flood damage, and the 19th hole was brought into service in its place.

They have one of those at many courses... in fact all three clubs at which I have been a member... I would call this an 'additional' or 'extra' hole rather than a 19th hole. Each was at least 1/2 mile from the club house and ONLY put into play when another hole was undergoing maintenance or repair. Otherwise there was no flag in the hole and sometimes no hole.  

They are almost exclusively par 3s. (And never that good or the membership might complain it belongs in the regular 18.) Although the one at NSWGC is awful cute for a hole that is 120yds long.

Does anyone know of one that is not a par 3?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tony: my first time at The Addington I mistakenly played that hole as the 18th! (As a par 4.)  I kept thinking, dang, this hole is so out of character with the rest of the course! Not to mention, tight off the tee, poorly conditioned (even by T.A. standards), and -- ho! -- who in Hades can hit *this* green!

And for the record, I went from the first green to the fifth tee, thinking it was the second!

A whole lot of extra walking that day. What a stupid I am...

[Mike McGuire]

John:

I find Erin GC's choice interesting because it means they really built a 19-hole golf course.  No one is going to skip a "bye hole" in the middle of the round on a public course.  So, either they couldn't decide what hole to throw out, or that's the weakest hole but there was a really long walk from 9 to 10.

Tom -

 The 9th and 18th tees are right next to each other. I think the original routing had the 18th finish a little ways from the clubhouse with a 19th hole to get you back. The 9th finished near the clubhouse

At some point  9 and 18 were swapped.  This left the 19th hole between nine and ten.

[Andrew Balakshin]

I agree that a 19th hole is more of a just for fun type thing

I think that an architect would put in an exciting 19th hole to leave the average golfer happier with their round (and without ruining the integrity of the course by having a gimmicky hole in the original 18).

Here’s a link to a picture of a 19th hole I can think of:

http://www.bearmountain.ca/golf-country-club/golf-course/layout-map.html

[Troy Alderson]

Treehouse Gang,

Who cares how many holes are at the golf course?

3, 6, 14, 20, 27, so what.

The USGA can calculate handicap for 9 holes and 18, why not more than or less than 18?

Golf is one hole at a time, maybe we should have individual hole handicaps.

Troy

Troy,

Don't you think it's nice to have some idea how long you are going to be at the course when a friend calls you up to play.  When I was a kid we use to play till dark no matter how many holes that took...now I got people who want to know when I will be home.  What is wrong with a little structure.

David,

Why do you think this is an agenda driven thread and what would my agenda be...Isn't it obvious that 19th holes have suddenly become all the rage and there is a danger of them being well over done.  We now have one at Erin Hills that I promise you will have no choice but to play...why suddenly 19..I don't like it and I apologize if that offends anyone.

John,

How could you not know how many holes are at the golf course you are about to play?  Are the new suburban 12 hole golf courses for executives during lunch going to freak you out?  Like I said golf is one hole at a time.

You do have a point though about time, I would have to open up a long day to play more than 18 holes at once.

The 19th holes should have a purpose.

Troy

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony: my first time at The Addington I mistakenly played that hole as the 18th! (As a par 4.)  I kept thinking, dang, this hole is so out of character with the rest of the course! Not to mention, tight off the tee, poorly conditioned (even by T.A. standards), and -- ho! -- who in Hades can hit *this* green!

And for the record, I went from the first green to the fifth tee, thinking it was the second!

A whole lot of extra walking that day. What a stupid I am...

I have read that just before it's opening they had to resite their plans for the clubhouse. They discovered that they couldn't pull some ex army huts they were going to use up to the top of a hill where they wanted them to be. So at the last minute the holes were renumbered to fit the current clubhouse location.  The spare hole then on to the current second fits better  than the walk from 1st green to second as a piece of routing?

[James Bennett]

A slightly different slant - wasn't the first at Pine Valley specifically designed as an ideal 19th hole, ie as an ideal hole to play if the match was even after 18.  Its design was aimed at encouraging a spread of possible scores from 3 through at least 5, so ensuring that a lot of matches that went to extra holes finished on the 19th.

Well, at least that is what my caddy told me.

James B