[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

Too many of the posters here from my observations focus on other elements -- some trivial -- while the totality of routing is often underserved at best and sometimes ignored at worst.

Beyond the quality of the land and the actual site itself -- the next most important element in any courser evaluation for me is the routing.

The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction. That's not the case today. Look at how intricate the routing is at Muirfield and what it meant for other courses to follow.

From my experiences the more intricate the routing the better the probability the quality of the course will be over the course of time.

[Neil_Crafter]

"The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction"

I can't believe I read this correctly, but it does say this. Matt, routings such as the Old Course, Royal Aberdeen etc that are true out and back courses are like that because they follow the links land that was available for them to lay the course out on, not because they could only go in one direction. If that was so all Scottish roads would be straight! if you look at Royal Aberdeen as an example, the links land between the ocean dune and the arable higher land is effectively only 2 holes in width and they followed this links land, not because they didn't know how to lay out a hole in another direction.

End of dissertation

Neil Crafter

[Matt_Ward]

Neil:

Look at how Muirfield changed the dynamics of routings for golf courses. No more than two holes in the same direction. Clearly, a good ways beyond the "out" and "back" methods.

End of dissertation.

[Matt_Ward]

I misspoke on the time table for the Kearny course and the other that will be built by En-Cap in the Jersey Meadowlandsa area in Lyndhurst.

Likely time frame is closer to '09 - '10.

[Neil_Crafter]

Matt
It took some time before Muirfield ended up with the 'ideal' routing that it has now. And the site was not restricted to a linear dunes parcel which ultimately allowed holes to run in many different directions. What I am attempting to get across is that the original out and back routings were determined by site constraints and not much else. You can't suggest they were not routed differently because the people involved didn't know how to run them in diufferent directions as your previous post contends. Otherwise how did they know to stop and turnaround half way?
Neil

[Matt_Ward]

Neil:

The main point I raised is that quality routings IMHO are those that maximize the natural elements of a given site and do their utmost to avoid any repetitive aspects that allow for players to zone in through their shotmaking. Going in the same direction for three or more holes -- and in both directions -- is fairly limited no matter what the rationale may be.

Quality routings are not predictable -- too often courses that are one way out and one way back fail to rise above the level of mediocrity. Please make note I am not suggesting that such courses like TOC fall because of this since a nmber of unique differentiations are part of the existing routing there.

No doubt there are constraints to a given site and the final routing will likely have to pay heed to what it had work with when the course was built. However -- just because of these limitations it does not mean to say that such courses are then held in the same awe / reverence as those with better parcels of land and which the architect has been able to create a routing that take you into a variety of settings / shots / directions / holes, etc, etc.

[SPDB]

The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction.

Like Neil, I can't believe i just read that. What was the problem? Did they wear blinkers like an easily spooked/wild thoroughbred? Did they remove blinkers to reveal peripheral vision, realizing, much to their surprise that there was land to their left and right?

I'm sorry Matt, this just doesn't make sense.

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Jim:

Sorry, I can't post any right now. However, I believe there is a link earlier in this thread that gives you some idea of the property and the holes.

It's a truly fascinating differentiation between the urban edginess of Jersey City within easy reach and the Irish motif golf course setting created by Eric Bergstol.

I'm looking forward to playing it sometime next year.

[NAF]

Neil Crafter has this pegged.  Deal for example could not be laid out much differently that it already is (a very similar routing like TOC with a loop at the end) because of the narrow nature of the linksland.. If you were to go across the Deal to Sandwich road ajacent to the 12th tee (where the linksland peters out) you'd be on downright farmland..  Routing really depends on the parcel of land.. You go next door to Sandwich and the dunes allowed a circular type routing although by the fame Suez hole, the linkland starts to get much flatter and peters out.

[Chris Munoz]

Jim, if you want to see some pics of Bayonne Golf Club there was a article in the MetGolfer a couple of weeks ago.  Pretty nice pics.  Just visited the golf course on Friday.  Great layout and some interesting green contours.  

Chris

http://www.mgagolf.org/

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Appreciate the comments -- I plan on playing Bayonne very shortly and will then examine if my "walking" comments on the par-3's was accurate.

Just a quick question -- is the driving area sufficiently wide enough to handle the heavy winds that can easily blow through the site?

Thanks ...

[Matt_Ward]

Given the prevailing wind do you think #17 would play fairer if it was a par-5 instead of a long par-4 ?

[Voytek Wilczak]

Jin Kim got a steal of a deal at Bayonne. No way Liberty National is 3 times better than Bayonne (if you measure by membership deposit amount...  ).

Actually a reverse relationship could be true.

The only thing I see bad about Bayonne is the approach by car, via the back industrial road by the Stop and Shop. Ugly, to say the least. Is there another car approach?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Since you have played Bayonne -- can you possibly provide a Doak ratings scale # to the course?

How do you view Bayonne GC with the other Jersey courses you have played. Please -- if at all possible -- be as clear as possible if you believe "X" course is better than "Y" course.

Thanks ...

[John Kirk]

Sounds great, Jin.  I think I see the wildly undulating ground in the background of the driving range picture.

I see at least three posts here where Jin's name was incorrectly spelled as Jim.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

C'mon -- how bout being a bit daring and stepping out on a limb with a Doak rating assessment of Bayonne ?

I'd be happy to get Tom's take but I'd much prefer to read yours because you do say it's better than Twisted Dune Whistling Straits. That's certainly saying something.

One other thing -- if you do think highly of Bayonne how would you stack it up against other Jersey courses you have played?

Thanks ...

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Matt,

As previously mentioned, his name is Jin not Jim.

Geoff

[Brad Klein]

Good timing for this thread, as I have a big review of Bayonne GC in this week's Golfweek. Place is amazing, flaws and all.

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