[Jordan Wall]

What are some of his designs and courses?

I played one of his courses co-designed with Fred Couples, Newcastle, and was pretty dissapointed.

The whole course was all contrived, and though sometimes this can be good, in this case it was not.  It did not help that throughout the whole course (which was already filled with houses) there were hammers banging as more houses were being built on the course.  If you were even a little bit off the fairway, you were in the two foot rough from hell and had zero chance of finding your ball--but you had a good chance of finding six or seven other balls.  The whole course was very mediocre and I question the big pricetag, which is $110 per round.

I dont know if this is normal for Robert Cupp courses, but this was bad...

[Sean Leary]

Cupp has done some very good stuff, including Pumpkin Ridge and Hawks Ridge .  Newcastle is not representative of his work.  That was an impossible piece of property to work with.  Clubhouse is something else though, isn't it?

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

One of the more anticipated courses from Bob Cupp is his new design in Jersey City, NJ called Liberty National. A planned July 4 opening is in the works.

The course is directly on the water and has vistas of Lady Liberty from any number of spots on the course.

[Jordan Wall]

I can see how that property was not exactly the best in the world but the course sucked and I hated missing a green by two yards and not being able to find my ball (no exaggeration).

The clubhouse was nice.

It was weird though, on the ninth my friend and I were hungry, as was her dad and his bud, so we called for two orders of french fries.  Apparently french fries were not elegant enough and they did not have any french fries, which kind of stunk.  It was okay, but we were like whaaaaat, no fries?

The staff was OK at best.  I forgot a club on the second hole and on the fourth hole I realized it.  A marshall was coming up and I told him, and he looked at me and just said "So what, its not my fault".  Though I knew he was right I already felt dumb enough and was not expecting such a 'smarta**' response, though he did end up bringing me my club.  

BUT...  The cart lady made my day I think.
 

[Glenn Spencer]

Jordan,

I have played Old Waverly Golf Club, Bob Cupp and Jerry Pate-1988. I see it is 94th on GD's 05-06. It is a really pretty golf course and it has some wonderful holes. The greens are not the most interesting or severe that I have ever seen. It has a nice mix of short holes and a couple of longish, but not real long par 4's. It is a real treat to play and the cottages there are fantastic to stay in. It is a wonderful place and experience. I am not saying that it is not a top 100 golf course, but I will say that there should be more than 8 spots between Old Waverly and Canterbury-#86 and Plainfield behind it would seem to be a stretch as well. Same with Harbour Town and TPC Sawgrass.

[Peter_Herreid]

Jordan--

I might suggest doing a little research on your own before throwing out such a general question...

http://www.cuppdesign.com/

It is a rudimentary website, but will give you an idea of some of what Bob has been involved with over the years...

Be serious now, as I think you have shown some savvy before on this site---what did you expect from Newcastle?  Again, do some research in advance and you'll know that the Newcastle site was/is a dump and unclassified for the usual land use options of housing, retail development, etc.  It took a great deal of finagling to get the golf course complex built up there, and it was designed to do exactly what it does--maximize the revenue potential of the CLUBHOUSE and stay pretty full for dining room and corporate events.  The golf course(s) were designed to do almost exactly what they do--maximize the views into downtown Bellevue and Seattle, and to present the CLUBHOUSE in the most majestic light available....

I certainly wouldn't judge anyone's body of work by the Newcastle project--the course(s) were never, and will never be, the focal point there...

[John Goodman]

I'm a fan of Cupp's work, of which I believe there is a representative sample here in Alabama.  Along with Jerry Pate, he designed the Founder's course at Greystone (caveat - I am a member there), an interesting and walkable course which hosted a Senior tour event for about 15 years.  Cupp and Pate are also responsible for Limestone Springs, ranked (for what it's worth) #4 in the state in the latest GD poll, and which has been spoken about favorably on here (justifiably so) by Mr. Hendren, I believe.  I played it over the weekend and it really is a very fine course.  I could give you details but in my view the back nine there is as good (not to mention scenic) a nine as there is in the state.  Cupp is responsible for the restoration (maybe not the right word) of Highland Park in Birmingham, the oldest course in Alabama, dating to 1903 (the former site of the Birmingham Country Club).  There is not enough property there by any stretch but the course is fun and has a number of holes of strategic interest.  Cupp several years ago designed Ballantrae GC, a muni south of Birmingham in Pelham AL, another fun course which really allows for the ground game.  Based on what I have seen, I would look forward to playing any Cupp course.    

[Jordan Wall]

I did not trash any other Cupp designs, just Newcastle.

That is why I asked.

I knew he had done a couple other nice courses, such as Pumpkin Ridge which I live close to, but not all his designs.

To be honest I did do research before playing Nexcastle and it was a lot worse than I thought.  
Maybe it was just a bad effort?
I also dont see the need for a $110 greens fee.
And what is with the two foot long rough?

[Travis Ripley]

Cupp did a re-design of the original Perry Maxwell layout at the University of Oklahoma GC in 1996....which is basically where i learned to play golf (after passing a rules and etiquette exam juniors had a 2$ green fee for 18 holes...if only today!)--that and another Maxwell course in OKC: Twin Hills CC.

he said going in that it wouldn't be a "faithful" re-design but a lot of the shot-making is the same and most of the holes on the back nine play pretty close to the original layout.  overall the routing is much the same--with the exception of a middle stretch of holes on the outward nine.  even still, many of the "shots" are fairly close....what was an approach shot over a creek on the old par 4 is now a par 3 on it's own.  a long par 4 is a par 5 with the tees back about 100 yards bringing a creek into play for "going for it" or laying up.  

one hole, however, the par 5 9th is a bit of clunker, IMHO, and wastes what was one of the more dramatic approach shots on the old design--formerly a par 3 over a deep ravine and creek (full of snakes!) with large overhanging oak trees.  as is now, it's  an awkward side hill approach for one's 3rd on the par 5.  a bit ill-conceived.              

i think overall it's a solid day of golf and the original course had fallen into a state of neglect....so as much as the re-design pumping money into the club has re-vitalized an old minor classic on a pretty nice piece of property that lends itself to some good golf and Maxwell's minimal approach really shines due to the quality of the land.            

the OU course will host the 2009 Publinx.  

http://www.usga.org/news/2006/february/2006_07.html

http://www.ou.edu/admin/jaougc/

[Peter_Herreid]

Jordan--

Any idea what Scott Oki's debt service might be up at Newcastle?  Also, what percentage of the play is corporate, client-related, group outing, etc?  If one is trying to position oneself as the premier CCFAD golf experience on the Eastside, how should one determine the proper greens fee?  Should it be more or less than Trophy Lake, Harbour Pointe or Wash Nat?  What was the greens fee several years ago, and has the club responded somewhat to the downturn in the golf economy here in the Seattle area?

How might Cupp have done Coal Creek differently if his mandate might have been to make the best use of the vistas?  Now the holes play (predominantly) up and down the slopes of the former dump/trash heap/landfill--should they have been routed diagonally or across the slopes?  Might that have been even worse, from a playability standpoint?

I think, from a golf architecture standpoint, that China Creek is pretty abysmal, and I don't think Coal Creek is much better, but anyone who thinks that golf architecture is the reason to play Newcastle is nuts anyway...

In terms of the greens fee, if you spent your own hard-earned money to play Newcastle, then I think you wasted your fees, and probably could have predicted that ahead of time.  You seem to have a good bead on the better public-access golf courses in the area, and know the good values.  Why would you overpay to play Newcastle?

If you were treated by someone else, then you have no reason to complain about the fees at all.

In terms of the two-foot high rough, I agree, it makes things nearly unplayable, and adds to the unbearable length of time it often takes to play up there...

I have a free round up there every year, and in 2005 I didn't use it, to give you some idea--I'm just not sure it's worth the effort to slog my way through the rough and around the ski slope...

The Sunday brunch and the views, on the other hand, are terrific!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have heard many great things about Cupp's design.  Here in Maryland he designed Swan Point.  It is built near the Bay and incorporates some marshy ground.  The club built a clubhouse off the third hole so the course and made it the first hole, so the course doesn't begin and end as designed.  The routing that Cupp did is better.  The course itself is not difficult but is great fun to play with many risk reward shots ane it requires the player to plot his way around the course.

[Peter_Herreid]

Crosswater (Sunriver, OR) doesn't break any new ground architecturally, but is a stunningly beautiful, low-profile design around some impressive wetlands--Hard to screw up that setting, and worth a play if in the area...

[Gary Daughters]

Ran's interview with Bob Cupp was one of the most elucidating I can recall reading here.  I recommend it to all who haven't seen it.

As I recall he refers to Pro-V1s as "crack," yet concedes he's addicted.  (To PV-1's).

Lots of good stuff about the economics of having to stretch new courses to accomodate the technology.

I tried to dig it up, but on my screen the link appears to be hidden now behind some graphics and photos.

[Paul Carey]

Tommy,  I agree with you on Swan Point.  It is a pleasure to play and fairly interesting for a flat piece of ground.  Many shots appear much more difficult than they actually are to play.  A lot of fun.

I heard recently that they are thinking of renovating/redesigning the course.  That would be a great mistake.  Have you heard the same?

Paul

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan--

Any idea what Scott Oki's debt service might be up at Newcastle?  Also, what percentage of the play is corporate, client-related, group outing, etc?  If one is trying to position oneself as the premier CCFAD golf experience on the Eastside, how should one determine the proper greens fee?  Should it be more or less than Trophy Lake, Harbour Pointe or Wash Nat?  What was the greens fee several years ago, and has the club responded somewhat to the downturn in the golf economy here in the Seattle area?

How might Cupp have done Coal Creek differently if his mandate might have been to make the best use of the vistas?  Now the holes play (predominantly) up and down the slopes of the former dump/trash heap/landfill--should they have been routed diagonally or across the slopes?  Might that have been even worse, from a playability standpoint?

I think, from a golf architecture standpoint, that China Creek is pretty abysmal, and I don't think Coal Creek is much better, but anyone who thinks that golf architecture is the reason to play Newcastle is nuts anyway...

In terms of the greens fee, if you spent your own hard-earned money to play Newcastle, then I think you wasted your fees, and probably could have predicted that ahead of time.  You seem to have a good bead on the better public-access golf courses in the area, and know the good values.  Why would you overpay to play Newcastle?

If you were treated by someone else, then you have no reason to complain about the fees at all.

In terms of the two-foot high rough, I agree, it makes things nearly unplayable, and adds to the unbearable length of time it often takes to play up there...

I have a free round up there every year, and in 2005 I didn't use it, to give you some idea--I'm just not sure it's worth the effort to slog my way through the rough and around the ski slope...

The Sunday brunch and the views, on the other hand, are terrific!

Nope, I paid for the round as I do every time I play golf (well, unless I play with my pops, whom was not there yesterday).
I had never played the course, heard some nice stuff, so I was excited.
Nobody else was impressed either, which was unfortunate because my friend was so excited for her birthday and left bummed.

A thing I do not understand is why WA National and Trophy Lake do not cost more.  They are light years better than Newcastle, and I am certainly not going to waste my time (and money) on the Coal Creek unless my round is paid for.  I am not letting my dad pay for us to play there either, because the course is way too crappy.

As for Harbour, I hope it stays cheap as it is almost a hidden gem.  Some quirky holes, some awesome holes, and better views than Newcastle.  Just a great course and even better condition wise.  Newcastle was soaking wet, and even smelled bad which was gross.  The greens were so slow and your drives would not really get any roll.  Considering there was just one day of rain and the entire day yesterday was perfect, I was a bit surprised tos ee the course in that shape.

The architecture of the course, as you pointed out, was very low and not very good.  The holes were really boring and there was way too much OB that was in my belief the only thing that could legitimetally defend par on many holes.  The houses were a whole different story.  I hate it when houses detract from an already bad golf course...

BUT...I look forward to playing Pumpkin Ridge sometime this summer.  It cannot be nearly as bad as Newcastle!!

[Bill_McBride]

Bob Cupp apparently did better work in Portland, as I hear good reports on his courses at the Reserve and Pumpkin Ridge.  I wasn't too enamored of the bunkering at the 17th at Witch Hollow / PR (looked like eyelets on a shoe seen from space!) and the 18th was really out of character with the rest of the course I thought - two forced carries over wetlands!  

Columbia-Edgewater had some work done by Cupp and the course is terrific, ergo Cupp's work must have been well done.

Maybe it's a Washington State thing.

[Sean Leary]

Bill,

You wouldn't believe the piece of property he had to work with at Newcastle unless you saw it. Portlandwise, it would be like building a course in the most severe sloping area of the west hills of Downtown Portland.  I place zero blame on his design abilities on that POS...

[Bill_McBride]

Sounds a bit like Furry Creek north of Vancouver.  That is the poster child for bad sites!

[Sean Leary]

Bill,

Nothing on earth is as bad as Furry Creek.  Nothing.

[Ryan Crago]

Bill,

Nothing on earth is as bad as Furry Creek.  Nothing.

sean,

site wise? golf wise? both wise!??

[Jordan Wall]

Bill,

Nothing on earth is as bad as Furry Creek.  Nothing.

Have you played Sandpines?

[Sean Leary]

Bill,

Nothing on earth is as bad as Furry Creek.  Nothing.

sean,

site wise? golf wise? both wise!??

Both wise.  I was horrified..You live up there.  What do you think of it?

[peter_p]

    Bob Cupp is a great guy to be around, in the limited time I've been around him. Most salesmen are. He is willing to take some chances on design, witness his geometric designed course on Hilton Head.
    The only course of his I did not really enjoy is Newcastle.
(Pumpkin Ridge x2, Reserve, Crosswater, Langdon Farms).
I belong at one of his courses (Reserve) and used to belong at one he remodeled (Tualatin). I'd think that most of his Oregon work was won by his association at that time with John Fought.
    The map of his remodel plan at Tualatin has two thrilling holes, neither of which was built as speculated. On the high bluff along the river they envisioned taking out trees on the bank, a cape par five and a cape par 3. Neither made it to construction because of permitting issues.
     Wouldn't hesitate to play his other courses, even if he builds holes which are built around my game, then go directly to course management.

[Wayne Freeman]

 Just for interest, Cupp was involved in the restoration of the oldest known course in the U.S.,  the nine hole Oakhurst Links, very near the Greenbrier. It's a whole lot of fun to play and experience-  gutta percha balls, sand tees, etc.

[A.G._Crockett]

Settindown Creek in Atlanta hasn't been mentioned yet.  It is superb, and has hosted the Nationwide (then Nike) Tour Championship, several NCAA regionals, and last year's USGA Women's Am.

Savannah Harbor, which hosts a Champions Tour event, is also excellent.

In fact, I haven't seen anything by Bob Cupp that I have NOT liked, but then, I love golf courses!

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