[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

That is ABSOLUTELY NOT what I said Hartmann said.

Please, try to do a better job in getting your FACTS right

Hartmann said that Parnevik, then the # 12 ranked player in the world, was ten shots better per round in Majors.
Hartmann made the statement to me in Parnevik's presence.

Hartmann and Parnevik have been friends and competitors for many years, hence I'll take Hartmann's evaluation of their respective abilities, at the time the statement was made.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I apologize for that collosal misstatement on my part (Hartman could not come within ten shots of Parvenik in any round in a major)!

OK, so the statement was Parvenik was ten shots better PER ROUND than Hartman in a major!

When did Hartman make that statement? Had Hartman competed against Parvenik in any major? The FACTS are readily available to see whether that's a true statement or whether is isn't!

And if they competed in major tournaments together and Parvenik was not ten shots per round better than Hartman what does that mean Pat?

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Duelling Doyens

1.  It is a FACT that Parnevick's father is Sweden's leading comedian (OK, maybe it's just an opinion.  In fact, all jokes in Swedish sound pretty much the same to me.....)

2.  It is POSSIBLE that Rick Hartmann's mother was "Mary Hartmann, Mary Hartmann", also of comedy fame, and so....

How many laughs would Jesper's Dad have to give Rick's Mom at, say, the US Comedy Open  (assuming that simultaneous Swedish-Murcan translation was available)?

Everybody else

Apologies

I will never use the words Parnevick and Hartmann in the same paragraph again.....

I will never use the words................

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Yes, indeedee, that's all very possible--and a very clever construction on your part, by the way!

Very possible! But if so, every single iota of the humor of it went right over Pat's head and he took it to be an unassailable FACT!

Now there are clearly all kinds of FACTS to prove otherwise, but Pat is apparently never going to acknowledge that!

Despite that, I do realize I'm probably asking the impossible here--which is that Pat Mucci admit that he is wro.....!

Oh my God, the thought of such an admission must be so horrible to him, dare I even say the word??

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom

Actually, I think Pat got the humo(u)r in my post of a day or so ago which resurrected this "thread."  He even used a smiley face .

Yesterday was, I think the Night of the Living Dead on the Mexican calendar, so I was perhaps not entirely responsible for raising this Parnevick-

(new paragraph) Hartman non-issue out of its grave...........

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The FACT is Rick Hartmann made the statement.

Since, after all this time, that hasn't sunk in, let me repeat it.

The FACT is Rick Hartmann made the statement.

He made the statement when Parnevik was near the top of his game, and ranked 12th in the world, and just prior to the Ryder Cup at Brookline.

He subsequently went on to expand and describe the circumstances surrounding his pronouncement.

Those are the FACTS.

I respect Rick's opinions, especially on golf, and his game,
SO, I BELIEVE Rick Hartmann.

Rich Goodale & Darren Kilfara,

It is a FACT, I got the humor in your posts.
As Rich pointed out, which TEPaul missed, I did add a  
smiley face to indicate I understood same.

TEPaul also missed the humor on my reference to Rae's Creek and his alleging that Crenshaw didn't need a bridge to cross it

I guess he didn't see the humor in Ben's dream either.

Now, is that a fact, or bias  

And you guys think I'm sensitive about Rees.

Do you know, in TEPaul's house, that if you say the word "Crenshaw" in casual conversation, a duck comes down with a one hundred dollar bill in it's bill ?  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Thanks for the recommendation! I don't have that duck in my house but it should be installed by tomorrow afternoon!

And on this Hartman thing, again, you're absolutely unbelievable!

So now the FACT is that Hartman MADE the statement, is it?

I don't remember anyone actually questioning whether or not Hartman made the statement only that the statement just ain't true!! And for weeks, maybe months you kept on defending the statement as a true statement of FACT--ie, That Parvenik is ten (10) shots better per round than Hartman in a major!

Matter of fact you, based the validity of that statement on much of what you said regarding the Philadephia Open at Pine Valley and the players in that Open!

So again, Pat, forget about whether it's true that Hartman MADE that statement!

Do you believe that statement--Parvenik is ten (10) shots better per round than Hartman in a major tournament--is a true statement or an untrue statement? You can just keep dancing around this question but I'm gonna keep on asking until you answer it!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're begining to make progress, you're begining to recall what was said, and by whom.

Of course I believe what Rick Hartmann said, and you admitted same just a few posts ago, in the first sentence in the first paragraph of your post of 11-03-02, at 4:26 pm.

TEPaul, you have to stop this habit of contradicting yourself.

[TEPaul]

"Of course I believe what Rick Hartman said".
Pat Mucci

OK, then, you believe him and you believe that Parvenik is ten (10) shots better per round than Hartman is in a major!

In that case, what does the FACT that Hartman beat Parvenik in the US Open at Pebble in 2000 do to the validity of that statement Hartman made which you believe in?

Does that FACT make that statement (which you believe in);

A/ A True statement

B/ An untrue statement

Luckily, this multiple choice question is only one out of two, not one out of three or one out of four! I don't know how I'd ask you to answer either of the latter two--that would obviously be far too complex for you.

With this one Pat, (one out of two) you can try eeny, meeny, miny, mo, for a while but see if you can pick one eventually, would you please?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Would you please go back and reread my post that caused you to agree with me, as pointed out above.

The answer to your question lies within that post.

Rich Goodale,

You realize that this is all your fault.  That you and you alone have set TEPaul off on a rant to the degree that he has both agreed and disagreed with himself and me.

Did you ever, in your wildest dreams think that a simple humorous jab directed toward me would result in setting off the Crenshawphile Philadelphia phanatic ?  

Let this be a lesson to you.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm sorry that I brought up the name Rick Hartmann

Does anyone think that Pacific Dunes is too easy?  Lets ask Jesper

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

We all know now what Hartman said and that you agree with it!

"Parvenik is ten (10) shots better per round in a major than Hartman".

Did Hartman beat Parvenik in the US Open at Pebble Beach or didn't he? And if so does it mean that statement is true or does it mean that statement is false?

Can you cite even a single major that Parvenik and Hartman played in when Parvenik was ten (10) shots better than Hartman per round?

And if you can't--what does that mean about the truth of that statement?

Come on Pat, stop beating around the bush and just answer the question!

[Evan_Green]

I think the notion that Pac Dunes is too easy is rediculous- I was there when the Oregon Amateur and many very good golfers were made to look like 18 handicappers. I for one found it difficult to adjust to playing that type of golf and I had quite a hard time playing there even in calm conditions. However anyone who thinks 13 is an easy hole- I  crushed a driver on that hole (It went about 210 yards- I usually hit it 275) into the wind on the last day I was there and had to hit a three wood for my second shot. Furthermore, all that needs to be done to make this course (or Bandon Dunes) impossible is simply tucking in the fairways and letting the junk surrounding the course grow out.

Thanks Tom for creating such an easy walk in the park !  

[Dan Belden]

 Tom Doak:

   Sorry I haven't replied to this earlier, I have been out of computer range for a few weeks.  
     I don't think that PD is too easy.  I think it is a perfect compliment to BD.  I was fortunate to be down there in September and played about 32 holes at PD.  The course can play vunerable during easy conditions, but so what.  Seminole and Indian Creek are the same way.  I love both.  Pacific Dunes is one of the very best courses in the US, with or with out wind. Would I personaly have liked one more ball buster somewhere, maybe, but again so what, I can't wait to go back.  I love playing there, and it is as simple as that.  For Golf Digest to hold it back in their ratings because they feel it is too easy is about the stupidest thing I have heard.
     By the way that new tee or old tee, on 18 is great, and that back tee by the snack bar  on 4 is something else. I like that way back tee on 4 because it doesn't pinch the driver landing area as much  .  .  In closing I was recently talking to one of my fellow members at Brookside about his recent trip to Bandon, and he just raved about Pacific Dunes and how good it was, and how he can't wait to go back. Amen          

[bakerg (Guest)]

Tom,

Don't change a thing.  I shot a 112 from the middle tees and loved every moment of it.  Plus, if people find it too easy they should go elsewhere and leave the course to the people that love it.  

Gary

[Michael M Thomas]

How about a new criterion: Resistance to Fun? Fun being something that the game is intended to be.
Far too much attention is currently paid to the severity that a given course poses, or can be made to pose, for the relatively small percentile of truly skillful golfers. This has led - recently at my own home course, as elsewhere - to a new game that we might call "Greenskeeper v. Players" - which has rendered a good many course virtually unplayable for the average-to-worse golfers who make up the vast preponderance of the active golfing population. An added side effect of this dreadful tendency is to increase measurably the time it takes for an average player to get around.
I can think of few courses that are more fair and more in keeping with the ancient and still worthwhile spirit of the game than Pacific Dunes, but even there, on my last visit, rounds were taking 5+ hours! I don't believe, in four days, we ever saw a putt of any length conceded in any group playing in front of us, and I would guess that perhaps one in five of the players we watched were ready to hit when their turn came up. If you exacerbate these appalling behavioral affects - 9 out of 10 golfers today clearly have no idea how to behave on a golf course - with added topographical and agronomic difficulties, an already parlous situation will become wholly intolerable!

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