Affordable Golf: Construction costs in Sand?

[Jeff_Brauer]

As Forrest and I know (from interviewing at the El Paso project) there are some communities that promote water conservation through turf limitations.  At the same time, they have strict tree planting ordinances.

While both are laudable goals, studies show that trees use far more water than turf, even if turf is fully watered. (One reason turf is bad beneath trees in addition to shade)  To date, I have never heard anyone speak against a tree planting ordinance, despite their higher water use.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Do I see a potential Richardson/Brauer colaboration on the horizon? Lots of agreement going on there. Sounds like a team that will knock them dead!

I would likel to reiterate what Larry said abut copper costs. I had to buy wire for a job the other day and when I saw the simple costs of #12 THHN solid, my head turned around just like Linda Blair's did in the Exorcist.

Also, I think some of you might be straying a bit from what Scott was originally asking--and don't get me wrong the stuff you guys are talking about is interesting. So you have that going for you. I think Scott was also asking the cost of construction in regards to sand vs. clay vs.--and I say this from complete experience thanks to Forrest, running into that dreaded stuff called culeechi. (sp)

[Forrest Richardson]

Caliche

..."knock them dead"...Not a term we like to hear in golf circles!

[Troy Alderson]

Jeff and Forrest,

Start watering at daybreak...why? when disease pressure is high for the area.  I start at 8pm and finish at 6am because my system is block with field satelites, thus I do not start at daybreak but nightfall.  I also water when the turf ET exceeds 1/4 inch (the amount I am capable of putting out in one night).

Building a system for the climate...the system I have been taking about is for a high desert climate.  Philly does not require a high desert amount of water which is why courses like HVCC can get away with 7M gallons per year.  I use 80M to 110M per year.  With a better system with more gpm, individual head control, and linked to a weather station I could drop it down more.  If I were in a climate like Scotland I would probably have a smaller system.  HVCC's system is not that fantastic, 4 inch mains single row with individual head control.  But the membership is like us, keep it dry.

Bells and whistles...which I do not have.  I have created a watering program, based upon ET, that tells me when to water.  It is not full proof, but gives me a great starting point.  I was on the verge of watering deep and infrequent after talking with Mahaffey but my job is on the line this year because of a pump station down last year for two weeks.  So I will stick with the existing program for this year.  The only way I know of to have dry and firm conditions consistently is to turn off the water and manually water the turf in the morning.  With my very low budget and very small staff, I do not see that possible.

With the right system and with the best amount of head control, a superintendent can create ideal golfing conditions.  We must look at the average ET rates per month during the growing season and size the piping and pump station accordingly.   But there must be individual head control and central computer.  I do not know a single superintendent that would pass that up.

Don't you just love it when we all agree from differing point of view.

Troy

[Mike Dasher]

Irrigation is like heroin.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Troy,

Sounds like you are one of the 50-80% finding a way to do more with less.  Also sounds like you are one of the 100% in near constant fear for their jobs if the turf goes brown a bit, which is a shame.  Does the Owner/gc chair ever have their car break down and go in the shop?  It may also be what leads to so much over design (which I know is a subjective term) and so much every night watering.

The problem with "educating" owners is that when the turf goes brown, they may very well forget (and often do) that they agreed to a lesser irrigation system.  Why admit that its a common problem when you can blame the super, no?  And all of that puts pressure on the super to water in a way that he/she knows isn't right.

This is not a new debate. When I worked as an apprentice, the firm had a thriving irrigation business, but insisted on desiging for maximum need watering in one night.  Gradually, "free" plans from distributors gained a foothold in the market, because our plans were 'too expensive.'  In essence, others designed for every other night watering, not every night watering.  Gradually, that irrigation design business faded, as initial cost won out (this was a simiar period in the 70's with rising gas prices)

I could just as easily - as a high school debater might - justify the long term costs of a better system, and have often tried, but lately, that's just not as good a sales pitch for some reason.......

[Scott Witter]

Tommy:

I have been following the thread and though that funny fellow Jeff and the ever stalworth Forrest have taken a slight side bar, I don't mind it because it has been interesting to hear their thoughts/experience on this important subject of irrigation.  To me, it does have considerable impact on construction costs in sand for comments that Tom, me and others have noted, though maybe not as directly connected as one might initially think, and I have also enjoyed the comments from the supers...they are the ones who often live and die by this essential element.  I even think they have taken something away from this thread as well...at least I hope so.

I don't always read the replies for their direct response, but the valuable overtones and insight between the lines are great too as irrigation impacts essential design intent as Jeff, Forrest and Tom D. have suggested.  Also, having the experience of working on courses for many years and being that young lad who ran his ass off, and getting soaked night after night I might add, turning heads in and out of quick couplers down old center row systems with no 'control' but my brain, I can REALLY relate to the comments about the irrigation system, oops sorry...got lost in the moment and noticed a nostalgic tear running down... and now even more as an architect and the affect it has on my design work.

Overall, this is the beauty of this site.  When I started this thread, I never thought it would go where it went, but now, and though the comments are strayed a bit they are interesting and relevant to design, maintenance, ownership, construction, philosophy of the industry and the game itself and certainly the affordability of golf.

[Troy Alderson]

Scott,

Thank for the thread and the eventual route it took.  I am a superintendent that wants minimal irrigation if any at all, but my clients want differently.  We need to change the expectations of the golfer and superintendents need to get off the overwatering band wagon.  When I talk irrigation systems, I am comparing to my current system and the attempt to maximize its potential.  Bigger piping and a bigger pump station with better head spacing would be a nice start.  Some days are overwatered, some days are underwatered.

Thank you again for the topic.

Troy

[Marc Haring]

Scott,

I am a superintendent that wants minimal irrigation if any at all, but my clients want differently.  We need to change the expectations of the golfer and superintendents need to get off the overwatering band wagon.  

Troy

Is there an overwatering bandwagon that the supers are on and if so why?

Also, how do you know that your clients want more water? I'm not doubting you but I sometimes wonder if a lot of this over watering is just down to a popular misconception about golfers. For example, I have asked a couple of hundred of my members what they want in a golf green and they said they wanted a medium firm surface and color was of no importance whatsoever. This is a UK perspective but I wonder if given the correct information regarding such things as sustainability, environmental issues, playing quality and cost, most golfers would actually see the light.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike Nuzzo and I are building a golf course right now with an irrigation system that will cost 1/2 - 1/3rd of the normal cost one might see today on a very nice golf course in the south.
We're doing it by going with larger heads at wider spacing, no perimeter part circle heads, the use of a two wire decoder control system as Larry noted, a design driven by a deep, infrequent watering program, and an in house installation. We will have all modern components with quite a few of the bells and whistles (radio, palm, weather station) that I find to be very helpful and not at all something that keeps me off the course.

[Larry_Rodgers]

One hidden cost of the irrigation on a sandy site would be the level of grounding equipment required. At Ballyneal, I was convinced that this site did not need to have the irrigation controllers getting in the way of a beautiful site. I requested the supply company to install some grounding devices to see what would be required for a "decoder" type system. The results were the grounding equipment would need to include 9 ground rods & 3 copper plates with gel fil.

There would need to be 100 of these units which is 3x the normal requiresments. I mention this because we priced a simple 850 sprinkler project with 1,000 gpm pump in early March and the cost of wire today increased the cost of the project $80,000 and we are considering a "decoder" type system that would reduce the 1,000,000 feet of wire to 80,000 feet of specialized wire.

It is an idea for reducing construction costs in the sand but you will need to know if the soil conditions will support the needed electronic protection equipment.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Larry,
When we began our look into decoders one thing we learned from some long-time users was they had experience grounding problems. The manufactures seemed to have addressed this issue and they've developed processes to maximize grounding, as you know. Here in TX, our soils are heavier and the grounding cost is quite a bit lower then what you have noted in the dunes of Northeast CO.

Interestingly, our use of decoders was due exactly to what seems to have driven your choice...no satellites to mar the landscape. I think we'll see a lot more decoder courses in the future.

[Larry_Rodgers]

One of the only negatives I hear about Sand Hills is the "ugly green sprinkler boxes". Jim Urbina and the other members of "team Doak" made a very good effort to help hide the clocks at Ballyneal. When the other GCA's get the opportunity to see this wonderful project the irrigation products are something that I hope they do not see.

I am working on a presentation called In-House/Out-house the benefits and downfalls of construction with staf vs outside contractors. This is off the original subject, But Mr Oneal choose in-house and has one heck of a product.

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