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Matt_Ward

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2006, 12:51:45 PM »
Jeff / Andy:

If you see the listing of Engh courses that Jeff has played to date all of them are second tier at best Engh designs with the possible exception of Hawktree which we see differently. You don't see listed Redlands Mesa, Sanctuary, Pradera, Lakota Canyon Ranch, Blackstone, etc, etc, etc.

The Engh fun factor is very much alive at the top tier layouts he has designed. Not all of the top tier are equals mind you IMHO, but when people play Pradera and Lakota Canyon, to name just two, they never forget the experience and are clearly intent on returning to the first tee pronto if time allows.

Jeff:

You mentioned the aspect of when Links of ND was built and how's its opening at that time would justify it being among the top 100 modern courses in America.

I don't buy it.

I can name plenty of more worthy public layouts that opened at the same time as Links of ND and never were even considered. I don't doubt Links of ND provided you and your father an enjoyable time. But in reviewing your own words it seems that enjoyment came more from the course not being crowded and you and your Dad enjoying your time and the overall scenery together. You even highlighted the walk you took when playing. All of that is gran dstuff but it doesn;t touch upon the core elements of the specific shots / holes played. I can name a number of other northern plains courses where such walks are also present -- AND the golf side of the equation is fun and challenging.

Jay, Garland, et al:

The idea that a course is great for the particular state it falls in says one thing to me. I don't doubt that Links of ND is superb for ND. The reasoning is quite simple. The bar for quality golf in that state is quite low.

With that said -- raising the bar to the national level and presuming the course is a legitimate top 100 candidate when other more solid and credible alternatives exist is what really makes me shake my head. I don't know what the scope and breath of public courses people have played for comparison purposes but from the broad range of public courses I have played in the States the Links of ND would not sniff the top 100 modern listing.

People often wax poetic about long trips to get to isolated locations. I mean after such a long slog it would be difficult to admit that such a ride / trek was not worth it to the max. Links of ND is a fine Stephen Kay layout but in every post I have read to date the emphasis is on the beauty of the off-course dimensions and very little tied to the specifics of key holes and shots played. Links does have its moments but they are fleeting at best and don't constitute for me the same kind of return play feelings one finds with places like Wild Horse and even Rochelle Ranch, two comparable public courses, located in the same general area of the USA.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2006, 01:07:01 PM »
Matt,

Your logic falls down when you refer to waxing poetic about the long trek there. It's not a long trek for some of us. I have family there.

Your whole credibility took a nose dive when, on another thread, you indicated that Eastmoreland in Portland was far better than the Links of ND. The front 9 of Eastmoreland is all vanilla generic golf holes that don't even hold a candle to the front 9 of the Links of ND, which you hold in such low regard.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2006, 01:12:15 PM »
Once again, Matt bringing his boy into the conversation. Matt, answer these two important questions:

How much is Jim Engh paying you? and Have you approached Jim Engh in the past or present to represent him in any regard?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I await your next putrid insult.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2006, 02:13:23 PM »
Jeff, thanks, that makes perfect sense (and I like the way you threw Engh a bone! ;)).  



Quote
Links of ND is a fine Stephen Kay layout but in every post I have read to date the emphasis is on the beauty of the off-course dimensions
And Matt, if you'd get a dang digital camera already we could all actually see the beauty, as well as the holes you describe! :P
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 02:16:07 PM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Matt_Ward

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2006, 02:43:30 PM »
Garland:

The Links of ND benefits from being in an isolated area -- I've covered that before time after time -- whether you have family there is not my point. Being in the northwest corner of ND is indeed remote. If you can't agree with that then our discussion is pointless.  Re: Eastmoreland -- put the course in the same exact spot and the likely fanfare would be no less.

Eastmoreland is a fine public course in the greater Portland area and when you say vanilla by design then you must have missed the vanilla-like holes that dominate the canvass at Links of ND. I simply opined to you that other metro areas in the USA have quality courses that have been dissed because isolated courses seem to drive more exposure from the national magazines. I can back that point up and have done so previously. You seem hellbent on ignoring my experience and hang onto Links as being some sort of superior layout that others can't touch.

Do you recall the qualities of the 2nd hole at Eastmoreland? Or the finishing three holes? Or the quality of the internal green contours that are present several of the holes? Be more than happy to weigh the contributions of Eastmoreland against the Links of ND. One other thing -- when major events come to Eastmoreland they can easily reduce the par to 70 with two of the shorter par-5's as par-4's.

Let me point out that you are the guy who skipped town when asked over and over again about the first six holes at Links of ND and how pedestrian they are. Don't see to ever recall seeing your in-depth analysis or any at all on this front.

When you speak about a lack of credibility you may want to see the reflection in front of the full mirror.

Tommy:

Once again -- the clueless Emperor rants and raves from his computer. The answer is I neither get one red cent to say anything positive about Jim Engh nor have I approached him personally to become his PR agent or anything like that. I simply state my comments as I see them -- if you bother to read my comments on Engh layouts I have played I have stated a number of elements that I believe have been duplicated or could be improved for a certain number of his designs. That approach is followed by any and all course designs I have had the opportunity to visit.

Fire away with more bomblasts -- it's par for your course.

Jeff_Stettner

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2006, 02:52:24 PM »
Matt,
The good news is... you don't have to buy it. That's what makes this fun. If we all agreed, GCA would be a really boring place.
Just so you think that I don't care about how the course plays, I have requoted some thoughts I posted after I first played the course. There is nothing about the views, cheap rates, walkability or the sight of my father strolling across a fairway (I cut that part for you).

"2. A short par four split into two fairways by a bunker complex that forces the golfer to bite off as much as he can chew. Most architects would have stopped there, by Kay then builds a green overlooking the river that is flanked down the left by three more bunkers and divided by a legitimate ridge. Serious fun, and while I won't go into this kind of description on every hole, the thought Kay put into the design exists everywhere.
3 and 11.
Two great short par 3's that have top-notch greens. 3 runs sharply off the back while eleven is a neat punchbowl.
12-16.
A wonderful stretch of par 4's that range from 350-475. While five par fours in a row can be tiring, here it's not. The pacing and direction of the holes ensure that difficulty is never overwhelming, using the wind and rolls in the ground to make sure that four-irons and wedges will both be needed on approach shots."

I even have photos somewhere (I like to remind myself of the design). Just so I know, what other courses were built at that time that never merrited consideration? For that matter, why weren't they considered? Was the marketing budget for The Links of North Dakota just too large?  

Matt_Ward

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2006, 03:03:14 PM »
Jeff:

#8 is far better than #3 -- look at what C&C did with #6 at Bandon Trails, to name just one example, and you can see how a short par-3 should play / look. I liked the 11th but the 17th is a far better hole. I did opine that a good number of holes on the back side trump the first few holes you play on the outward nine.

Jeff, you did mention the emptiness of the course when playing with you Dad and the walkability item was front and center -- to wit -- "There are few better walks in the park."

I don't disagree with your take generally on holes #12 thru #16. Kay did a nice job in changing directions so that the wind is not a constant ally or foe.

The question isn't that Links of ND has qualities -- but do those qualities rise to the level of national acclaim. I don't see it and can name a number of superb public courses -- other than Engh's -- that are cost sensitive and also showcase the on-course and off-course elements in a grander and more detailed manner.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2006, 03:23:16 PM »
Garland,
...Let me point out that you are the guy who skipped town when asked over and over again about the first six holes at Links of ND and how pedestrian they are. Don't see to ever recall seeing your in-depth analysis or any at all on this front.
...
Wow! Senile and lazy. Too senile to remember my support for holes 2 and 4 on page 1. To lazy to go back through my posts to determine what he has to say is accurate.
On LND 2 I agreed with the analysis that had been posted before me. And you agreed with the analysis of LND 2! On LND 4 I indicated the nature of 4. Since the front nine at Eastmoreland is about as flat as you can get, clearly the terrain of LND 4 gives much more interest (not to mention the superior bunkering).
CREDIBILITY GAP                    CREDIBILITY GAP                CREDIBILITY GAP
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Stettner

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2006, 04:05:52 PM »
Matt,
For the second time... please let me know what those other courses are. I will actively seek them out...

Matt_Ward

Re:The Links of North Dakota - very natural
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2006, 07:57:33 PM »
Jeff:

You may want to check out the following in either the Northern Plains or Mountain Time Zone -- they are all cost sensitive, have a unique land / site, solid course routing and above average shot values.

Wild Horse / Gothenburg, NE (designed by Dan Proctor and Dave Axland)
Devil's Thumb / Delta, CO (designed by Rick Phelps)
Antler Creek / Falcon, CO (also designed by Rick Phelps)
The Hideout / Monticello, UT (designed by Forrest Richardson)
Rochelle Ranch / Rawlins, WY (designed by Ken Kavanaugh)
Thanksgiving Point / Lehi, UT (designed by Johnny Miller & Gene Bates)
Lakota Canyon Ranch / New Castle, CO (designed by Jim Engh)
Black Mesa / LeMesila, NM (designed by Baxter Spann)
Red Rock / Rapid City, SD (designed by Ron Ferris)
Highlands Meadow / Fort Collins, CO (designed by Art Schaupeter)

These are just a few --

If you should be located in another area of the USA I can certainly provide choices closer to home.

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