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Kyle Harris

The Blood of Angry Men
« on: May 21, 2006, 09:32:48 PM »
MAD KUDOS to those who get the title's allusion. I just posted this on my blog and figured it would raise some good discussion. A certain entertainment lawyer also dared me to post.

Bethpage Red v. Bethpage Black

sirputtsalot.blogspot.com

I love Bethpage State Park. The park could possibly be one of the greatest places on earth. I itch to get back there day by day. To those familiar with my tastes in golf courses, you may know that I firmly believe the Red Course to be every bit as good as the Black, and in some subtle ways superior. There are those who ardently disagree with me, but that's okay - that's what makes this game wonderful.

I've always been fond of matching up two courses hole-by-hole and will probably beging to do so more often in this blog as a method of comparing, contrasting and disecting architectural features. Done right, it can be quite useful in assessment of a golf course.

Here goes for Bethpage Black and Bethpage Red.

First hole:

The Black's first wins for atmosphere (especially as the first group out - I still get chills thinking about being the first to break the silence on the Black on October 14th, 2004 and splitting the fairway down the middle), however, outside of that and a decent green, the Black's opener is fairly benign. Though, to be fair, the hole does require a well aimed tee shot in order to have a shot into the green and one must execute perfectly to cut the corner, but most decent golfers will have no more than 7-iron into the hole.

The Red's opener is a brute. 470 yards of a brute for the tips, to be precise. While bunkerless (though a sliced ball may find the bunkers that pinch the Black's 18th fairway), both shots require execution near perfection. The ideal tee shot finds the left side of the fairway which has the green view obscured by a mound about 100 yards out with the green about 40 feet above the fairway. Hitting a running, long iron into this green is the ideal play for the approach. Perhaps the most endearing part of the hole was realized this past March when I played Bethpage Blue. With the flag out of the green and the grass dormant, someone unfamiliar with Bethpage would not be able to tell a golf hole was even there - that's as natural as it gets.

Red wins: Red 1-up

Second Hole:

The Black's second hole is often villified as not being up to the standard of the rest of the course. I find this to be a baseless claim mainly made by people who feel the Black should be all about bombs off the tee. While the second can easily be reduced to a 3-wood, pitching wedge proposition this is hardly an indictment. Double Bogey lurks on both shots as going through the fairway or too far left leaves an awful angle into the green. Once on the green, two putts are fairly easy to come by as the green is one of the flatter on the course, but often times, the player is over aggressive for the birdie.

The Red's second is another villified hole and perhaps with more reason than the Black's. Like the Black's this is a dogleg left where driver may not be the best play. Unlike the Black's the hole is fairly flat and non-descript.

Black wins: All Square

Third Hole:

The Black's third is a good long par 3 with a devlish fall away green. The long to mid iron approach must land short and hopefully hold the back of the green. Front right is a good bailout as any of the front left bunkers are a difficult up and down proposition.

The Red's third is a very strong par 4 dogleg right with a dip in front of the green that can hamper the long hitter off the tee. The green has a good amount of movement in it and with the recent green expansion, holes can be tucked in corners like the days of yore.

Hole Halved: All Square

Fourth Hole:

The Black's fourth is an all-world par 5 that really has no comparison. It could possibily be one of the best "second shot" par 5s in the game of golf (I put the 13th at Augusta as a Par 4.5). The glacier bunker is formidible and the green will give you nightmares with a misstruck approach.

The Red's fourth is a decent mid-iron length par 3 that serves its purpose quite well. Don't miss left or long (on the 18th tee of the Black). Perhaps the best feature of the hole is the view of holes 15-18 of the Black course.

Black wins: Black 1-up.

Fifth Hole:

The Black's fifth is another all-world hole, this time playing to a par 4. The oblique bunker that messes with the tee shot is one of the best uses of such a bunker I've seen and the method by which a golfer challenges the hazard can reap many rewards on the approach. The sheer horizontal elasticity of the hole is incredible as well, and in the two times I've played it there has been two vastly different results. The green sits like a fortress above two bunkers from the fairway and forces near perfect execution.

The Red's fifth is an excellent par 5 with a premium placed on the angle off the tee (no line of charm on the Red, Jay? ;-)) . The golfer is forced to fight instinct and play the long way down the outside of the hole to even have a shot at the green in two. Too far right and the hillside and trees force the golfer to a bad angle from about 140 yards out on the left. Another restored green with a lot of movement awaits the golfer.

Black wins: Black 2-up

Sixth Hole:

The Black's sixth invites the golfer to really wallop a hard drive down the left side as this may be the most open tee shot on the course. The green sits like a pancake wedged between two Tillinghast pastiche bunkers and is usually approached with anything from 6 iron to wedge, depending on the line off the tee. A good hole and a good breather after four and five.

The Red's sixth is also fairly wide, but with trees lining the hole on both sides. A sharp dogleg left - the instinct is to play left, but dips, swales and the valley through which the fifth hole plays awaits the slightest hook. The best play is 3-wood to the outside of the corner which yeilds an open shot to the green. Two restored bunkers await an overly aggressive approach as the green actually feeds away from the golfer. I've speculated that at one point the trees down the left were much lower and sparse, giving the golfer a view of the green from the tee. Since the green "faces" the tee box this could have been a way for Tillie to tempt the player into biting off more than the player could chew.

Red wins: Black 1-up.

Seventh Hole:

The Black's seventh is a relatively easy par 5 with a difficult tee shot compounded by a bunker similar to the fifth hole's. This hole is actually played from a forward tee for the US Open and played as a par 4. The green is one of the more undulating on the course but the second (and third) shots are some of the easiest.

The Red's seventh is a mid length par 3 (a club or two longer than the fourth) that would probably fit well at a bunch of other Tillinghast courses. The hole follows the scheme of a lot of the par 3s at Bethpage (3rd and 14th on the Black, all four on the Blue, 11th on the Yellow, 12th and 17th on the Red) of having the tee and green on high points across a valley. This does get redundant (especially on the Blue), but is appealing on this hole.

Hole halved: Black 1-up.

Eighth Hole:

The Black's eighth is a drop shot par over a pond to a severly sloping green. A bunker compounds the back left. I've hit 5-iron to the green both times from the back tee into a breeze and have parred the hole both times. It's non-descript, but effective.

The Red's eighth is a short par 4 that begins an excellent stretch of holes on the plain portion of the property. Avoiding the bunker off the tee is key and will leave the golfer with a wedge to a tiered green. It's non-descript like the Black's but fun nonetheless.

Hole halved: Black 1-up.

Ninth Hole:

An interesting par 4 on the Black with a VERY exactly tee shot. The new back tee places the carry to the top of the hill to something like 295 yards (I have VERY mixed feelings on both the efficacy and decision making for this new back tee). Don't reach the top and you have about as much of a hook lie that is possible without rappelling equipment. I think the hole will be better from the old back tee (I have yet to play the new one).

Stand on the ninth tee on the Red and let your golfer's instincts take over. Everytime I play the hole, my eyes scan for the best angle to hit my tee shot and they inch perilously close to the tree line and bunkers at the inside of the corner each time. Did I mention this hole is 440 yards from the tips? The green is something else too, pinched off by bunkers but allowing a well struck rolling shot on (unless you cut the corner, navigate the bunkers and avoid the trees effectively where you'll probably be treated with a 5-6 iron approach).

Red wins: Match All Square

Second Nine coming up in a bit.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2006, 10:28:22 PM »
I wonder if there is anyone else who feels the Red is as good as the Black
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Phil_the_Author

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2006, 11:23:05 PM »
Kyle,

As someone who has played both course between 250 & 400 times each, I can only implore you to seek either competent psychiatric help or sell the formula for whatever you are taking to a giant pharmaceutical firm. You will most definitely get a wonderful price...  ;D

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2006, 11:25:57 PM »
Kyle,

As someone who has played both course between 250 & 400 times each, I can only implore you to seek either competent psychiatric help or sell the formula for whatever you are taking to a giant pharmaceutical firm. You will most definitely get a wonderful price...  ;D

Philip,

A most wonderful riposte.

Bob

Jay Flemma

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 11:38:54 PM »
Kyle and I have chatted about this offline.  I'll just throw out my two cents and say I dont agree, I thinkm the front of the black is far more superlative to the Red.  I think 6 is underrated as a par-4.  I love ccresting that hill and seeing that green below in its sea of bunkers.  I also like two even though I finally learned how to hit a draw...by turning the club in my hand;)

Jordan Wall

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2006, 03:37:45 PM »
Kyle:

Why do the you feel the red is an equal challenge and the equal course to the black??

There must be a reason people always want to play the Black, and why a US Open was contended at the Black, correct??  

I just find it interesting you think the Red is the Black's equal when everybody else I know says otherwise...
I mean, its not everyday there is a golf course where people have to sleep in the parking lot to play.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 03:42:10 PM by Jordan Wall »

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2006, 03:45:11 PM »
Never played either course.  However, re:

MAD KUDOS to those who get the title's allusion.

I have but this to add:

Les Miserables.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 03:45:31 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Glenn Spencer

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2006, 05:04:03 PM »
I haven't been to Bethpage in a couple of years, did they clean up the Red Course the way they did the Black? If so, I can see how one can say that they prefer the Red. I don't, I love the Black course, but there are a lot of good things about the Red. The hard holes on the Red are harder than the hard holes on the Black in my opinion, besides 15, just more hard ones on the Black.

Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2006, 06:11:38 PM »
Red, the blood of angry men
Black, the dark of ages past
Red, a world about to dawn
Black, the night that ends at last.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2006, 06:13:15 PM »
Red, the blood of angry men
Black, the dark of ages past
Red, a world about to dawn
Black, the night that ends at last.

Right on brother!

 ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2006, 11:09:06 PM »
Tom Huckaby,

Mad kudos  :)

Kyle:

Why do the you feel the red is an equal challenge and the equal course to the black??

There must be a reason people always want to play the Black, and why a US Open was contended at the Black, correct??  

I just find it interesting you think the Red is the Black's equal when everybody else I know says otherwise...
I mean, its not everyday there is a golf course where people have to sleep in the parking lot to play.

Jordan,

Good questions.

I've played both courses 3 times each. I've played the Yellow and Blue once.

The Black was built to be a world beater of a golf course with the mission of it being a public Pine Valley. Tillinghast routed the Black over the select property on the course next to the old Lenox Hills Country Club (the course of which is now Bethpage Green). It was always intended to be the most difficult and exactly challenge at Bethpage, and for the most part still is. I admit that the Black is harder more consistently than the Red.

The Red and Blue (the Yellow was conceived in the 50s and is made of holes from the old Blue Course and several new holes by Alfred Tull) were also built for tournament golf. In "Reminisences of the Links" there are pictures of tournaments played on all three courses. All the holes shown still exist today, as well.

I feel the Red has more elasticity in regard to course set up. Since the Black is routed through some severe terrain, it is certainly a more rigid setup. What the Red has going for it is that on any given day, the course - or several holes - can play easier or harder as needed for tournament conditions.

The Red has seven EXCELLENT long par 4s in 1, 9, 10, 14, 15 and 18. Intermingled with a good short par 4 in 6 and a good breather in 8. These provide an exacting test of execution both off the tee and in the fairway. Furthermore, and in most instances unlike the Black, the Red gives you several options off the tee as to both angle and club selection. On the ninth hole, you literally sit there and scan for the line and actually have to DECIDE where to hit the tee shot. In the case of the Black, this is done far less often - especially from the back tees - since the demand on the Black is more for distance execution in a lot of cases than simple angle. Holes like 5, 7, 9, 10, 12 and 15 simply ask the question that the golfer hit the fairway as far down the hole as possible. While on the Red with holes like 3, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14 and 15 you are asked to play more for angle to cut distance and are given various means to do it. 6 and 13 especially ask an interesting question, with both position, angle of attack to the green and distance being placed at a premium.

On a good day on the Red (playing wise) it is possible to be more aggressive and swashbuckling than on the Black. The Red can also bite you in ways that the Black can't. With the Black, EVERYTHING is right out in front of you and there really isn't much subtlty. However, the Red can lull the golfer into a false sense of security only to have him digging a hole from which he may not extract himself.

To wit, while the Black may have a very exacting test of execution, I feel the Red provides more of a mental test than it's neighbor. Both are world class.

I think Bethpage would make an excellent US Am site, with Red and Black sharing Medal play duty and Match Play on the Black.

To answer Glenn's question:

The Red has gotten much love with restored greens, bunkers, new tees and an overall increase in conditioning. It's nice to see.


Jordan Wall

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2006, 11:36:20 PM »
Thanks Kyle

I now understand a little bit better.

Are you saying then that possibly the Red could one day be a US Open course, or worthy of handling one??

Kyle Harris

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2006, 11:37:19 PM »
Jordan,

It's already apparently up for the US Women's Open in the near future.

It certainly has the length to host a US Open.

Jordan Wall

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2006, 11:38:42 PM »
If needed could more length be added??

If not, what is the length now??

Kyle Harris

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 11:40:18 PM »
Jordan, it's out around 7100-7200 now.

And yes, more length could be added.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 11:41:26 PM »
It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again.

Jordan Wall

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 11:48:06 PM »
Are the greens like the black course??

Phil_the_Author

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2006, 12:45:11 AM »
Kyle,

My deranged friend  ;D, I need to take you on a tour of both courses... Ahhh the young and inexperienced miss so much...

The Red is definitely NOT a U.S. Open course, and as far as having "the length to host a US Open," although I don't remember off hand the current yardage, it in no way the same type of yardage as the Black, even if the numbers are comparable.

Tilly believed that a hole (and therefor a course) is only as long as it plays. The main problem with the Red is that there are too many holes that suffer because they simply are not long enough and even with adde length, would not play long enough.

Holes 2, 3 & 6 are neither challenging nor long enough and there isn't any room to extend the length.

8 can be extended but is currently too short. 9 is a wonderful hole.

On the back nine, 10, 11 & 13 are all holes that need more length before they can challenge the best. 14 is a terrific hole that is overshadowed by 15 which is among the top 10 greatest unknown par-4's in the world.

16 is a week par-5 and needs length but has no room for it.

When we played it together last year, I pointed out the green sizes and the need to restore them to their original sizes (remember the abandoned bunker some 25+ feet left of the 6th green).

Please don't get me wrong. The Red is a wonderful course that I believe should be given strong consideration to be included in any Top 100 public Access list. That it is comparable to the Black is IMHO a HUGE stretch.

The weaknesses of the course are only noticeable because of how grand the Black is. If that course didn't exist thenthe Red would be viewed differently.

It is the site for the Long Island Open and routinely beats up the competition, especially when the pins are stuck in the front of the greens as they traditionally do on day one.

And yes, there are talks underway for the U.S. Amateur to be played at Bethpage using both the Red & the Black with the final round on the Red.

There has also been suggestions that the Red course would probably be a perfect site for the Women's Open, especially since the New York area lacks a course that could benefit being identified with this.

Hope to see you at the Open where we can continue this fun...  ;)  
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 12:45:53 AM by Philip Young »

Kyle Harris

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2006, 05:33:30 AM »
Phil,

Not sure if you're aware, but I've been told (Doug Braunsdorf played the Red a few weeks ago) that a bunker has been added to the 6th hole near the green. I am not sure if the location is where the old bunker was, but Doug sent me a picture from his phone. I hope he chimes in here. I've also been told that a lot of greens have started to be expanded (the third being the most notable - if you remember our conversation about the back of that green going out to the edge of the pad, that's what's being done).

I agree regarding 2 about being not challenging or long enough. However, aren't both second holes similar in regard to length on the Red and the Black?

Couldn't a new third tee be constructed toward the gap between the ninth tee and 16th fairway? You'd have to remove some trees, but I recall there being room back there.

8 is currently too short, I agree, but the green does make up some ground there.

Not sure I agree with 10 needing more length (isn't something like 450 from the new back tee as is?).

Couldn't the 16th hole conceivably be played from the 17th tee of the Blue Course? I do agree that 16 is a weak par 5, but the hole gets better as you get to the green. That tee was also the last time I hit a persimmon club... yours.  :)

What I don't understand is:

1.) The disparity in opinion on how people feel the Red would be treated if the Black weren't next door. You seem to feel that having the Black next door is a detriment to the Red, yet others feel that having the Black next door is the ONLY reason the Red gets noticed. That seems to be a HUGE swing in thought regarding the course.

2.) How the Black is viewed as being a ball buster and world class a priori and the Red has to be analyzed and defended against being banal. The Black, IMO, has 4 world class holes - 4, 5, 12 and 15 and there is no contest that these holes exceed everything on the Red (and have said and will continue to say that in the article from the first post in this thread). However, the Black's weak links like 7 - 9, 13, 14 and 18 do not stand up well against the majority of the Red course at all. Also, in general, the Black's greens have far less interest than the Red's. Take away the 1st, 3rd and 15th greens and they are, for the most part, benign.

I am inclined to agree that the Red is not a U.S. Open venue for a number of small reasons, but alas, I must go punch the clock.

More later.  ;)

At which days of the US Open will you be in attendance?


Mike_Sweeney

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2006, 06:04:14 AM »
Kyle,

I have played The Red 3 or 4 times. It was the site of my first sub 80 round, thus I have fond memories and I still can't remember the holes well enough to put up a good argument. But you keep trying as the hardest course in New York to get on is The Black, so you keep putting your friends on The Red. ;)

For public golf on The Island, The Red sits in the second tier with Tall Grass, Montauk and LI National, but I would prefer the other 3 over The Red most of the time. However, it would be a good spot for a US Amateur. An interesting final day would be the first 18 on The Red and the final 18 on The Black.

Glenn Spencer

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2006, 09:38:07 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

That would be a dream final day, 18 on each, but wouldn't it be unprecedented? I would like to know if this has ever been done before at that the Womens' AM level or higher? The U.S. Am at either course would be a dream setting. The qualifying on both would be great,IMO, I am saying Black-Amateur, Red- Womens' Open.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 09:38:34 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Dave Bourgeois

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2006, 12:48:03 PM »
I've played both and for a higher handicapper the red is certainly more fun.  However, I disagree with the assessment that 7-9 on the Black are weak holes.  They are not as brutish as other holes on the course, but fit quite well and do offer interest.

7) There is a choice to how you carry the bunker off the tee and how close you should come to the trees on the right.  It is reachable in two if played correctly which is of course exciting as well.  I do agree that if you go for the green in two there is not a high risk for missing, so that takes off points.  However, it does add to the variety in the routing.

8 This is a very interesting green in my opinion, and the tree on the right is now complimented by a new bunker on the left of the green.  I wouldn't want to play a bunker shot from there to a downhill pin.

9)  I love this hole because it has an aspect of blindness from the tee.  This is especially true if you ventured to the way back tee (I've only stood there).  This also signifies to me that its time to hang on for the next few brutes.

Also, I love 17 and that with 14 on the yellow are two of my all time favorite par3s that I have played.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 04:56:17 PM by Dave Bourgeois »

Kyle Harris

Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2006, 04:45:30 PM »
Bump for Kevin Edwards and update later tonight.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Blood of Angry Men
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2006, 11:11:39 PM »
Phil,

Not sure if you're aware, but I've been told (Doug Braunsdorf played the Red a few weeks ago) that a bunker has been added to the 6th hole near the green. I am not sure if the location is where the old bunker was, but Doug sent me a picture from his phone. I hope he chimes in here. I've also been told that a lot of greens have started to be expanded (the third being the most notable - if you remember our conversation about the back of that green going out to the edge of the pad, that's what's being done).

Thanks, Kyle.  Most people aren't so anxious to hear from me  ;)

In response to this thread-

Two bunkers have been added to the left greenside of the sixth hole.  About four feet deep each, and having no particular shape as I remember (played last on 3rd May).  Kind of a cross between what Tillie may have put there and what Rees did on the Black.  I am not certain if the park staff did it from an old aerial and approximated the shape as best as possible.  

To further add some background here, the 6th hole is a short par 4 of maybe 350 yards.  The hole is a virtual 90 degree dogleg left.  The inside of the dogleg features a deep series of swales and overhanging tree limbs.  Shots that find the left side of the fairway here are very difficult to advance to the left side of the green, but advancing to the right side is somewhat easier.  

The green shape is roughly a teardrop shape rotated 90 degrees right--i.e. the narrower portion is on the right
and difficult to hold except with a well struck shot.  The green is tilted slightly from right to left.  

From playing the hole many times, I feel the best play here is long iron or fairway wood to the outside of the dogleg, then play to the green.  Front right of the green is relatively level, and a ball can be bounced in there.  

What was added to 6, and is downright difficult, is behind and right of the green--the narrower side--is mowed as fairway now.  To put this in perspective, behind the green rolls off slightly downhill for maybe 7-10 yards behind the green.  Chipping area for maybe 10 yards, a thin band of rough, then woods--unkempt woods. Behind and right of the green is an access road which park vehicles can travel upon, and travels downhill to the vicinity of about 50 yards up the right side of #5.  

I think, from an architectural and playing perspective, the left greenside bunkers are not that much in play, except for pulled second shots.  What is in play is the closely mown area.  

Starting from the tee, the golfer now needs to think about placing the tee shot in a particular place in order to have a good chance at holding the green with his second.  Or, as Kyle likes to put it, "fighting for angle".  

If a golfer is in the left side of the fairway or swale, he will most likely have to contend with large hardwood tree limbs or an uneven lie.  If a golfer misses the fairway right, it is possible to advance the ball to the green, but holding the green is another story.  

So overall, 6 is a very good example of 'placement' on a course that requires length in some instances, placement in instances such as this.  

In addition, I noticed 10 green is expanded.  The edges of the green on the right side fall off into the right greenside bunkers, and there is a terrific mound in the back center of the green.  I also noticed 2 green seemed a little bigger, mowed a little further out, and several other greens had some ridges towards the outside.  

We'll all just have to go back up and play it again!  

« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 11:13:57 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."