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[Kyle Harris]

What are some of the more interesting layups in golf?

How about second shots to (truly) 3 shot par 5s?

I'll get the ball rolling: 7th Hole at Huntingdon Valley



4th Hole at Bethpage Black

[Jordan Wall]

10th at Riviera.  

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

Would you say there is interest in the "layup" option at Riviera?

As I understand it, taking less club on the hole takes pretty much all the trouble out of play and is a fairly easy shot. The challenge is to overcome the temptation.

More looking for an interesting second shot where the decision between lay up and go for it is the lesser of two evils.

At Bethpage, you basically hit your second shot on four down the spine of the Glacier bunker to get the angle. The more you bite off the bunker the better your shot in, but if you open the clubface up just a bit, you get gobbled up.

At the 7th at HVCC, you have a hanging lie and need to really assess both your distance in and how far right you're willing to aim in order to feed the ball down the slope. Mess up and you have a baseball swing with a wedge into the green.

[ed_getka]

Fortunately there are more of these holes being built today at the courses I am seeing. There is nothing more boring for a medium length hitter like me, who rarely reaches in two, than to have absolutely no reason not to smash the ball as far as possible on the second shot.
   My favorite is Sand Hills #14 that for me is defined by hollow that is about 150 yards out from the green that leaves a blind approach. If you try to bail right there is a bunker there waiting for you if you are short. If you bail out right and are long then you are coming into the green from an angle that makes the green super shallow to you, with a bunker in front and behind, so the shot is virtually impossible. If you try to cheat left on the second shot and carry the hollow area you have to hit it far enough to carry the rough and bunkering that pinches in from that side. However, if you hit your shots perfectly this hole is easy.

[Kyle Harris]

Ed,

You've touched on a very important architectural point there... perfects shots will make any hole easy.

Not terribly familiar with Sand Hills, but from your description if appears to fit exactly what I am looking for... it's almost like having to hit a green before actually having to hit the green.  

I find this game to be much more fun as a medium hitter as well. I can go get kicked in the teeth at Bethpage Black, or an absolute brain screw at 6300 yard Jeffersonville.  

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Would you say there is interest in the "layup" option at Riviera?

As I understand it, taking less club on the hole takes pretty much all the trouble out of play and is a fairly easy shot. The challenge is to overcome the temptation.

More looking for an interesting second shot where the decision between lay up and go for it is the lesser of two evils.

At Bethpage, you basically hit your second shot on four down the spine of the Glacier bunker to get the angle. The more you bite off the bunker the better your shot in, but if you open the clubface up just a bit, you get gobbled up.

At the 7th at HVCC, you have a hanging lie and need to really assess both your distance in and how far right you're willing to aim in order to feed the ball down the slope. Mess up and you have a baseball swing with a wedge into the green.

The tenth at Riviera is yes, as I understand, very easy to lay up short of the bunkers.  BUT, if you did that you would have a 155 yard shot to an extraordinarily small green and an ego bruisng 9 or 8 iron off the tee.

Then you could possibly go left of the traps in the middle of the fairway, and I think left of the middle fairway traps is just 12 yards wide, so though you could possibly have a better angle with a short iron you would have to place a premium on accuracy off the tee as well, even though you would be hittin hardly any club at all (maybe 5 or 4 iron 175ish...).

If you go past those bunkers you have a pitch to a small green and it is not always easy to stop so that would not be the best option because a full shot would be better, and plus a pitch usually has some roll to it and well, you only have about 30 feet of green to 'roll' it on.  That brings laying up just past the middle bunkers for an ideal wedge yardage.  The problem is though, when you do that you have to go over a greenside bunker and then you risk spinning the shot off the green and into the bunker.

That means the best thing to do would be to hit a 5 or 4 iron over the middle bunkers and to the left of them for a full wedge shot into the green and if it spins you will have an ideal angle and you would still be close.  Yet again, that shot challenges you because if you go to far you are in yet anopther fairway trap so then that makes the hole complicated.  The truth is there are just so many great lay-up options to that hole that really make you think.

[Pete Stankevich]

The 18th at Yale is always an interesting layup, even more so now with all the tree clearing and the clean up on the slope separating the upper fairway from the lower fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

That's a great question.

I'l like to hear from some of the architects who frequent this site, their views on layups, forced or optional.

[redanman]

How about deciding whether or not to lay up and where to layup at #16 at Applebrook?

[Jordan Wall]

I need to stop coming up with a bunch of lay-ups because I do not want to keep posting and posting.

BUT, one more

CPC #16

[ed_getka]

Jordan,
  You do NOT want to go there about CPC, at least 5 pages are sure to follow on Monday if someone finds that.

Barona Creek near San Diego is another course that has a good par 5. Creek/ditch starts out down the right side of the hole, and the hole angles away a bit to the left off the tee. About halfway down the hole there is fairway on the right side of the creek/ditch so that you have a split fairway. Depending on the pin position you will make your decision not only whether to go for it, but also which side of the ditch you want to be on if you are laying up. There is enough contour in and around the green that what side you come in from really can matter.

[Shivas]

Dammit, Jordan beat me to it!

Reading this thread, all I can think of is Dave Moriarity's infamous espousal of the "exilerating layup option" on 16 at Cypress.

Ed, now that the issue has been raised, we have no choice but to go there...

[ed_getka]

Can't we just pull up the old posts and save some typing?

[Jordan Wall]

Just Wondering...

Why wouldnt the lay up option be good on CPC.

I mean, the old cypress tree and everythin, it just fits awesome.

[JLahrman]

The 8th at Scioto.

There are at least three options on the second shot if you're not going to try for the green in two (this violates the premise of the thread, I admit):

1)  Play all the way to the far left side of the fairway and leave yourself about 160 in over the water.  If you've lost your drive right this might be the only option.

2)  Play over the ridge in the peninsula fairway on the right, leaving yourself a half wedge into the green.

3)  Stay short of the ridge, leaving yourself a full wedge in although as I recall the shot can be blind depending on how far right you've gone.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18214

The 8th is the hole running top to bottom alongside the lake.

[Mike Benham]

For mere mortals, the 18th at Pebble Beach.  

Ocean left, bunker left, OB right.  Get the right yardage.  Cut the corner.  The crashing surf.  The onlookers.

[Tom Huckaby]

Just Wondering...

Why wouldnt the lay up option be good on CPC.

I mean, the old cypress tree and everythin, it just fits awesome.

Jordan:  the layup option on #16 CPC is wonderful - as far as layups go it's a pretty difficult shot, and you have the visual pegged.

Just think of it this way:  when you get your chance to play the hole, how likely are you to take that option?

That was the gist of the long-ago lenghty discussion featuring Dave M.'s well-coined new term.

TH

[Paul Thomas]

the Ravine hole at COngressional???

[Jordan Wall]

Tom,

I would of coursego for the green on #16.

That being said, I hit it farther than some other people.  What about the people who would rather play the hole and take a 4, or even a 3 and lay-up than hit their driver and have minimal odds of hitting the green and letting one of the greatest holes in the world eat them up?  And, doesnt the lay up option make the hole better??

I see where you are coming from, but I just think about the people who may not be able to make the carry to the green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

#15 at Pine Valley..you have to make a big decision reagrding the type of shot you want to play into the green.
The flat lay up area is not very wide and means you have to stay well back from the green...or you can get a little close and deal with an uneven lie...great second shot hole..for that matter great any shot hole!

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan:

The assumption was we were talking about golfers who can reasonably make a 200 yard carry.

And of course the layup option is part of the hole's greatness - no one ever denied that.

The question at the time was how realistic it was for a golfer who can make a 200 yard carry to eschew that in what likely is his one and only crack, or one of very very few chances, at that very famous golf hole.

Which of course you answered yourself.

IN any case, for purposes of this thread, hell yes, it has to be among the most interesting layups in golf.  

TH

[Michael_Hendren]

I am confounded by the two fairway bunkers in the layup area of the 16th at Cascades.  They should be easily avoided with a short to mid-iron but are absolute jail.

Mike

[Sean Leary]

Being a homer here, but second shot at the three shot 3rd at Aldarra is a great layup shot. It is a 3 wood to 5 iron (depending on your length off the tee) with the fairway sloping left to right.  Bunkers left at the 100 yard marker and a solitary tree at the same distance down the right hand side.  A very wide green, the hole location sets up which side of the fairway you want to end up on.  With a right flag, you have to be on the left half of thr fairway to have an unobstructed shot, and with a left flag, you need to be on the right half to have a better angle to the green....

[Tony Titheridge]

Using the theory that either boredom or lack of variation is the nucleus of many underwhelming layup shots, it has usually had me thinking in one of two ways.

I prize the layup that is by degrees. For example, instead of having to layup to a set point or distance out, the shot is designed so that there are gently varying degrees of risk with every few yards difference in target line for the layup, with each added few yards along that line giving a gradually better next shot. Elements such as diagonal shots, with the further the carry, the better the look in and the shorter the distance. Or the further the layup, the narrower the landing area is and the better presented the next shot is.

These varying degrees take away the boring simple scenario of the layup yardage being automatically selected for you and you need merely to play the required shot, with little problem being a couple of dozen yards longer, shorter, left or right of the intended spot.

Some other layups are much simpler and less varying in their presentation or degrees, but achieve quality by making a more aggressive play viable to more players, thus adding temptation and removing the ho-hum forced monotony of the layup (eg. Riviera #10).

[Kyle Harris]

Bump.

[Adam_Messix]

Kyle--

The 9th Hole at Kinloch.  You can either:  1.   play it down the left fairway short of the cross hazard leaving a uphill shot of 140-160 yards or 2. play up the right fairway where you don't have a cross hazzard to deal with but you do have a fairway that gets progressively narrow with a hazard on the left that will leave a bit shorter shot in that's as uphill or 3. bust a long second shot (a 3 wood for me) over the cross hazard on the left and up a sizable hill that leaves a sand wedge in with the a clear look into the green.  It's a great hole.

[Phil McDade]

Kyle:

I've always thought the par 5 13th at Lawsonia is one of the great "hard" layup holes I've encountered, because there are a variety of choices, for varying levels of golfers, and because it does something that few par 5s do -- a bolder layup can be more penal than one in which the golfer lays back a bit with the layup.

I'll crib from Dan Moore's summer thread on Lawsonia for photos, than provide my own explanation:

--------------

13th Hole  568/556  (560)

The 13th,   the longest hole on the course, calls for well considered tactics combined with bold, accurate shotmaking.  The need for a strong drive is tested by a series of bunkers aligned en echelon along the left edge of the fairway creating a slight cape effect for those who challenge the bunkers in an effort to gain distance.  The second shot requires a well played well placed shot past the tree located 180 yards from the green.  The fairway drops off significantly inside 120 yards and one needs to be careful to avoid a down hill lie for the third to the green located high on a bluff surrounded by pines. 

13th From Tee


13th  Bunkers en echelon  “ Thus to open up two or more avenues of play on a hole we must build our cross bunkers en echelon (step formation or diagonally across the course, and must allow bunkers built at right angles to the line of play to extend only partially across the course, leaving room to play around them at one or both ends.”  Langford 1914   

Langford’s 1914 drawing showing en echelon bunker arrangement


13th From the landing zone showing the original tree 185 yards from Green


13th From the landing zone right

13th  A Look Back.  Note the ideal lay-up location on a plateau between 150 marker and about 120 yards.  Unless you can get all the way to the bottom of the gully anything farther risks a downhill lie to the uphill green location. 


-------------

It's hard to depict in photos how deep that ravine is that fronts the latter portion of the hole, leading up to the green. Ran's GCA profile depicts it pretty well:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/lawsonia000256.html

I'd note that for the average golfer, the best layup is short of the ravine/gully, just past the lone tree (the old one has now been replaced). For the bolder golfer, there is actually a small plateau some 50 yards short of the green to take aim it. Making the choice on the layup even more thought-provoking is that the green sits in one of the few truly wooded areas of the course, and the woods sort of envelope the approach area leading up from the ravine to the green, giving the golfer the sense there's less margin for error with a wayward approach.

I've yet to encounter another par 5 that provokes as much thought with the layup as the 13th at Lawsonia.

[JNC_Lyon]

13 at Oak Hill East.  While the tee shot is also a bit of a layup for some players, the second shot presents a few interesting dilemmas.  Two deep bunkers are cut into the right hillside between 150 and 100 yards from the green.  This means after a good drive, a golfer will have about a 215 uphill carry to fly the bunkers and find the safety of the bowl short of the green.  This is Option A.  Greg Norman was able to carry the bunkers with his second in final round of the Senior PGA this year.  He was left with a short, straightforward pitch that resulted in a birdie.  However, only the tiger golfer has the opportunity to pursue this option.

Option B is lay back with an iron.  This is initially unappealing because it will leave the golfer with a long, semi-blind third, something that is particularly uncomfortable on a three shot hole.  However, the landing area for B is flat, meaning that the golfer will have an easier time finding the fairway and he will have a rare level stance for his approach.

Option C for the mid-length player is to challenge the neck of the fairway beside the bunkers with a fairway wood.  The golfer will ultimately be tempted to blast away to leave a wedge approach.  However, the fairway in this region slopes hard from right to left.  This means the golfer must challenge the bunkers to have any chance of holding the fairway and having a clear shot to the green.  Anything left of a straight ball up the right will find its away to the left edge of the fairway or rough.  This area is obstructed by the towering trees of the Hill of Fame.  Admittedly, these trees should be trimmed back, but their strategic influence is undeniable. 

Ultimately, the bunkering (part Ross and part RTJ), the slope of the land (right to left in the first landing area and in an inviting bowl in the second--part of Ross' truly genius routing at the OHCC property), and the trees (John R. Williams) combine to create a fascinating second shot at the epic 13th.

[Anthony Gray]

  How about Sawgrass 11. The question is where do you lay up? Right which leaves a shot over the water. Left which requires you to take on the water and control your distance to a narrow fairway. Or lay up in the greenside bunker. Options,options,options. Great design.


  Anthony

[Jim Tang]

How about the 16th at Sawgrass?  I know it isn't a true 3 shot par 5, but that is one difficult layup.  That tree on the left makes for a very difficult angle on the 3rd shot.

I also think the layup at Ballyneal's 4th provides options.  You certainly can just blast a hybrid or wood down the fairway on your second shot, but that typically leaves you with something like 60 to 80 yards in for the third.  I quickly found out that having to hit a half wedge off that tight turf to an elevated green is not a lot of fun.  You just can't get the third to stop and that back bunker comes into play.  I think the wiser option it to lay the second back to a 100 - 110 yards to give yourself a full swing for the third.  You also need to be in the left center of the fairway to avoid the large bunker fronting the green on the right.  This is a very subtle and great design.

[Scott Szabo]

I don't have any pictures, but there are plenty that have been posted here.  Ballyneal's #16 presents such a layup if either played into the wind or if the drive isn't struck solidly.  The pinch in at the turn of the dogleg usually requires a shot to be played short of the pinch, but will leave a touch 3rd.  This hole has been discussed a bit here, but I think it meets the definition of what we're discussing perfectly.