Are spin rates the critical factor in distance control ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will higher spin rates also serve to put "working the ball" and "controlling the ball" back into play ?

Do spin rates affect those golfers with higher swing speeds more then golfers with lower swing speeds ?

In dinner conversations with some good amateur golfers from around the world last night, this topic came up.  And, everyone, including golfers from Ohio thought that the ball and equipment needed to be reigned in.

It seems like the lines of demarcation are clearly drawn

Manufacturers and Golf Magazines versus retro-fitters,
with only one golf association joining the retro-fitters, the Ohio Golf Association.

Will other State and Regional Associations join the Ohio Golf Association in adopting a "competition" ball ?

If so, how many golf associations will have to do so before the USGA does the same ?  And, will The Masters be one of the entities joining the retro-fitters prior to the USGA ?

Would it surprise anyone if the "competition ball" were made outside of the Continental U.S. ?

[ed_getka]

I couldn't tell you since I can't spin the ball to save my life.
Are you saying there is a competition ball in Ohio events?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Pat,

Your innersanctum is involved in a debate that hardly affects the game the rest of us play, yet you try to pretend you affect the game the rest of us play.  Once again the privaleged are in charge yet you know so little.  What a pity.

[Craig Sweet]

Over pop corn and cold beer at the local muni last night, some of us hacks were talking about getting some new equipment.

I asked the boys if any of them with new Ping G5 drivers, and those fancy Cleveland HiBores were smaking it 350 yards.

They just looked at me as if I was from Mars. So, I said, how about knockin' it 300 yards? And they all laughed...one actually blew beer out his nose he laughed so hard....

Finally, one of them spoke up and said, when he "hit it good" he was smacking it about 225....maybe 20 yards further than he did with his old Big Bertha....and then he said, "but the miss hits feel better and go a little straighter".

So, I asked the boys what ball they were hitting...ProV 1's?  Are you kidding they all exclaimed...those damn things are too expensive, and they find the ponds a lot more often than the Top Flight's they play.....one of the boys said he likes that Noodle ball....another spoke up for the Callaway Warbird....

Well....I said, how about "spin rate" and MOI ?  The blank stares told me everything I needed to know about this group and spin rates....

So, Pat...the "critical factor in distance control" where I play golf is the price of gasoline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

The fellow from Ohio was involved in the decision making process.

He's intelligent, articulate and concerned about a game he loves.  Like many of us, uninformed as we may be, he's seen the harm, the disfiguration of golf courses caused by the continuing pursuit of distance.

In America, privilege and class aren't a birth right, handed down by the previous generation.  Every one of these fellows
worked their tail off pursuing the American dream, and achieved it through their own efforts.

Let's not get so high and mighty before you know all of the facts.

Craig Sweet,

Would you say that your group is representative of all golfers ?
Or, do they represent but a single faction of those that play golf ?

[ed_getka]

Craig,
  Love the post. That last line is a classic.

[Craig Sweet]

Pat...the guys I play with have not traveled the world playing golf....they have had next to zero participation with their state or local golf associations, most could give a rats ass about establishing a "handicap"...they shoot anywhere from par golf to 110....they play everyday....they have a boat load of fun.

So, yes, I would guess they represent a HUGE majority of the golfers out there.

[Peter Pallotta]

We often speak here about 'most golfers'. I honestly don't know what that means anymore.

Case in point: Golf Magazine ran a test on how teeing the ball high, medium or low affects driving distance. What struck me was this: that a group of 0-9 handicappers hit dozens of balls teed at varying heights and their average distance was about 219 yards (carry). That's right: 219 yards.

That amazed me. I couldn't help but wonder: if you asked  these low handicappers before they were tested how far their average drives went, how many would've said 'oh, about 220 yards'? Not many of them, I'm guessing (since I've never heard ANYONE with any kind of a handicap, high or low, say they drive it 220 yards). I'm guessing most would've said 'oh, 250-260, and when I really get hold of one about 280'.

I know this is just one test, and I don't want to add another piece to a thread about distance, but I will say this: I think the only thing we can say with any certainty about 'most golfers' is that most golfers are liars  

Peter  

[Craig Sweet]

Peter, I saw that too....didn't they use a launch monitor to measure distants and direction....and not a real world situation?

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, Craig, you're right. I didn't notice that before, but I just checked: "carry distance was measured by a launch monitor which also calculated launch angle, club head speed, ball speed and spin".  

I don't know nearly enough to know whether in real world situations they would've carried the ball further or not, but now that I'm reading it I notice that the average club head speed of the 0-9 handicappers was about 98 mph.

The 10-19 handicappers, by the way, had an average carry distance of 176 yards.

I think the guys you play golf with may be the last honest men on the planet. It must have something to do with Montana

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

A 219 CARRY distance isn't inconsequential and certainly doesn't tell the total distance story.

At a low trajectory, a 219 carry distance will translate into a very long drive, at a high trajectory, probably not as far.

But, I'd agree with one thing, there is a tendency to overestimate, be it fishing, golf or girls.

I think the telling statistics are the NCAA driving stats.
These show what young kids, barely out of their teenage years are doing with their drivers.

When I was in college, noone as a group was outdriving the PGA tour pros.

Times have changed.

Craig Sweet,

They play EVERYDAY, and you think that represents the majority of golfers out there ?

Most people I know work everyday and play golf at their leisure.

I like your friends schedule better.

[Craig Sweet]

Peter, I have hit on a launch monitor and most of it makes little sense to me. However, I can clearly see that swing speed and launch angle sure has a lot to do with carry distance....of course you have to strike the ball somewhere on the club face as well...

My club head speed was something like 106 and I was getting 265 yards of carry....

I have a buddy's club fittting data right here...it's interesting what spin can do...

His Ping G2...8.5 degree...stiff shaft

club head speed ......................112.4
ball speed..................................156.8
launch angle.................................11.7 degrees
back spin......................................2987 rpm
side spin........................................+157 rpm
distance.....................................268 yards

So he then hit with a Bridgestone J33R xstiff shaft...9.5 degree loft

club head speed..................110.6
ball speed...........................156
launch angle........................10.6
back spin..............................2460 rpm
side spin..............................+23 rpm
distance..............................271

He gained only a few yards, but he eliminated a great deal of back spin and side spin...he hit the ball straighter...got a little more carry, and more roll....

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick

I believe you when you say that this fellow from Ohio is an experienced player concerned about the disfiguration of golf courses caused by the continuing pursuit of distance.

What I genuinely don't understand is WHY are all these courses being disfigured/lengthened?  Is it that the very best courses attract (or want to attract) the very best players, and these are the very players who are hitting it the farthest?

I know the Golf Magazine test I cited above is just one of many, but are there really that many long hitters out there? Is at least SOME of the lengthening of courses due to owners/members wanting to 'keep up appearances' given the  perception that everyone is hitting it further?

Peter  
(oh, just saw your recent post Patrick, but maybe the questions here are still valid)

[Craig Sweet]

Pat, I knew you would catch that...

What do you think Pat, do my friends...based on my first post, before I told you they play everyday...or nearly everyday...do they represent most golfers or a single faction?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

We've only been talking about the central importance of spin rate on here regarding the golf ball and distance control for about 3-4 years now. Where have you been?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter Pallota,

I believe it's cultural, having its genesis and momentum supplied by TV.

I'm very familiar with a nice little golf course, about 6,500 yards.  A joy to play.

Despite no golfers breaking par in a club championship there's a faction of the membership that thinks the golf course is too easy and needs to be lengthened.

This thinking is not confined to this club.
Almost every club in the area has added distance in the last few years, and, it's an ongoing process.

While I wouldn't want to take a specific situation and make it a general statement, I notice that many of the older members see the younger members playing the golf course differently.
By differently, I mean that they are so much longer then the older generation that the older generation thinks the club must beef up its length in order to counter the advances in distance.

And, in many instances, they're correct.
The architecture meant to interface with the golfer, doesn't do so any longer, it's become obsolete, avoided by the young players like the Maginot Line.

I also see published slope ratings for all the clubs in the Metropolitan New York area, and I think that slope ratings have become a catalyst to beefing up one's golf course.

In some instances, I see holes lengthened by 5 yards.
Why ?
What difference is 5 yards going to make on the play of the hole ?

But, when you view the addtional 5 yards in the context of the scorecard and all 18 holes, you begin to get a sense that clubs want to increase their slope, keep up with the Jones's.

The lengthening that's gone on over the last 10 years, is going on now, and is planned for the future, is probably greater then the lengthening that went on between the origin of the club and 10 years ago.  And, it's continuing at an alarming pace.

How many courses being built are being built at 6,200 yards ?

How many at 7,000 and above ?

I think the problem is systemic, not isolated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I knew you would catch that...

What do you think Pat, do my friends...based on my first post, before I told you they play everyday...or nearly everyday...do they represent most golfers or a single faction?

I can only base my conclusions on the information you present, and based on the information you've presented, I don't think your friends represent the majority of golfers in the U.S.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

We've only been talking about the central importance of spin rate on here regarding the golf ball and distance control for about 3-4 years now. Where have you been?  

I've been in Montana for the last 3-4 years.

[Craig Sweet]

Pat and TPaul...We live in Montana to get away from people that spend all their time worrying about spin rate and MOI and whether a golf bag should hold 14 clubs or 10....

[TEPaul]

Wherever you've been you haven't been paying much attention to what's been disucssed on here regarding distance and spin rate----.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wherever you've been you haven't been paying much attention to what's been disucssed on here regarding distance and spin rate----.  

Yes, I have.

But, last night I had the opportunity to talk directly to one of the architects of the "competition" ball adoption by the OGA.

[TEPaul]

Craig Sweet:

I trust your sense about what needs to go on in Montana. However, what needs to go on in Montana is apparently not exactly at the vanguard of some of what golf should consider now regarding distance control.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat and TPaul...We live in Montana to get away from people that spend all their time worrying about spin rate and MOI and whether a golf bag should hold 14 clubs or 10....

That sure is a good reason to move to Montana.

TEPaul,

Do you know anyone who spends all their time worrying about spin rate and MOI, and the number of clubs in a bag ?

Craig Sweet seems to be doing a lot of posting about those issues and I thought that was against the law in Montana.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom, we in Montana are certain that those at the "vanguard" will screw it up and make a big mess....
 

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick
thanks for the response. It's all very interesting:

"I'm very familiar with a nice little golf course, about 6,500 yards.  A joy to play. Despite no golfers breaking par in a club championship there's a faction of the membership that thinks the golf course is too easy and needs to be lengthened."

I'd never have believed it. Maybe the members who can't break par but still want the course lengthened feel they're being 'hamstrung' by a short layout.  

"This thinking is not confined to this club. Almost every club in the area has added distance in the last few years, and it's an ongoing process."

Alas, perhaps golf, that most individualistic of sports, is now increasingly being peopled not by people, but by sheep.

Peter