The 10th Hole ... Are good ones in the minority?

[Jimmy Muratt]

The 10th at Merion is a pretty darn good risk/reward par 4.  

The 10th at Kinloch is one of my favorite holes on the course, it just has a wonderful greensite.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Not sure if we're interested in generally unmentioned courses.. but up here in W. Mass there is an RTJ/Rulwich course near the Vermont border called Crumpin Fox. It was originally 9 holes. The old front is now the back and it's a good thing because the 10th is a super strong hole, longish par 4 with a wide open fairway but a bitch of an elevated green (usually too firm to hold anything not perfectly struck..) and I'd say - too tough for a first hole.

[ed_getka]

Mike,
  I guess not is the answer. Pasatiempo is yet another.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pine Valley, Turnberry....

Sean,

How is # 10 at PV a GREAT hole ?

It plays at 142 to 161 yards to a 5,185 sq/ft green

I can see WFW, but, PV ?

[Wayne Freeman]

 Philip-  Is the 10th at Winged Foot the ultimate par 3 tenth?  Not in my book?  Is it terrific?  You bet, but I think the par 3 at Friars is better and you know the long par 3  10th over the swinging bridge at Bel-Air has to get a few votes as all world.
   In fact the big 3 in L.A. have excellent 10th holes-  Bel-Air and Riviera are top notch, and L.A.C.C.   has a more than decent par 4 10th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Freeman,

How is the 10th at Friars Head better then the 10th at WFW ?

Bunkering,
Angle of attack
Putting surface
Size of the green in relation to yardage ?

[Chris Kane]

Pine Valley, Turnberry....

Sean,

How is # 10 at PV a GREAT hole ?

It plays at 142 to 161 yards to a 5,185 sq/ft green

I can see WFW, but, PV ?

"Amongst inland courses, the authors can only think of the 9th at Myopia Hunt Club  and the 7th at Royal Melbourne (West) as being of the same calibre and quality as the 10th at Pine Valley."
Ran Morrisett, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/pinevalley000234.html

[Andrew Mitchell]

Anyone for the 10th (South America) at Carnoustie?

A great two shotter with the Barry Burn snaking in front of the green, and a great story to the name of the hole!

[wsmorrison]

Andrew,

I have to say I was not impressed with the 10th at Carnoustie and thought that area of the course was out of character with the remainder of the course, very American like hole with some trees--unusual in old Scottish courses.

While the 10th at WFW is a great hole, its significance is greatly enhanced by the tournaments played and history made there.  I think it is exceptional but is it that much better than say the 10th at Rolling Green?  I think if there is a margin of difference it is slight and not necessarily in favor of WFW.  If the 10th at WFW were on another course that didn't get majors or high profile events would it have the regard it does now?  Of course not because it would be little known on its own merits.  There are lots of great par 3s by lots of architects.  The perspective gets narrowed by exposure and proximity to NY

Consider the implications of the relatively unknown par 3 10th at Rolling Green, an uphill 245 (planned as 260) yard par 3 built in 1926 with green slopes that interact in subtle yet devious ways.  The hole had to work architecturally integrated with maintenance that relies on firm and fast and ground contours to allow a well-struck low running draw to reach the green.  This hole tested and still tests a specific shot to reach the green for a 2-putt par but it also allows for precise short shots so that the tortoise can catch the rabbit.  It is a shot testing hole that rewards skill but allows a Tom Paul to chip and putt his way into an infuriating halve with a long hitter.  It is also the third in a set of three very challenging holes.

[Kyle Harris]

Andrew,

I have to say I was not impressed with the 10th at Carnoustie and thought that area of the course was out of character with the remainder of the course, very American like hole with some trees--unusual in old Scottish courses.

While the 10th at WFW is a great hole, its significance is greatly enhanced by the tournaments played and history made there.  I think it is exceptional but is it that much better than say the 10th at Rolling Green?  I think if there is a margin of difference it is slight and not necessarily in favor of WFW.  If the 10th at WFW were on another course that didn't get majors or high profile events would it have the regard it does now?  Of course not because it would be little known on its own merits.  There are lots of great par 3s by lots of architects.  The perspective gets narrowed by exposure and proximity to NY

Consider the implications of the relatively unknown par 3 10th at Rolling Green, an uphill 245 (planned as 260) yard par 3 built in 1926 with green slopes that interact in subtle yet devious ways.  The hole had to work architecturally integrated with maintenance that relies on firm and fast and ground contours to allow a well-struck low running draw to reach the green.  This hole tested and still tests a specific shot to reach the green for a 2-putt par but it also allows for precise short shots so that the tortoise can catch the rabbit.  It is a shot testing hole that rewards skill but allows a Tom Paul to chip and putt his way into an infuriating halve with a long hitter.  It is also the third in a set of three very challenging holes.

Or Kyle Harris to go duffed 3-wood, 6-iron to a foot on his way to par.  

It's my favorite Par 3 in Philly that I've played, beating out the 8th at Manny's, 5th at Huntingdon Valley and 9th at Whitemarsh.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Have you been to Philadelphia Country Club yet?  The 15th hole there is an incredibly fine uphill par 3.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Have you been to Philadelphia Country Club yet?  The 15th hole there is an incredibly fine uphill par 3.

I watched some of the US Am medal play there, but didn't get out to 15. I've also heard some very good things about 11. The two par 3s on the first nine seemed quite nice as well.

[wsmorrison]

Agreed, Kyle.  Flynn paid a lot of attention to his sets of par 3s and succeeded very well indeed.  I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I think his par 3s are among the finest as a whole body of work and also as individual sets on each course.  We've got a terrific sampling of par 3s in the entire Philadelphia district including some of the very best long par 3s in any district.  Long par 3s seem to be a systematic effort here in early Philadelphia golf architecture.

Kyle, of the Flynn courses you've seen, which set of par 3s do you like the best?

[Kyle Harris]

Rolling Green's for the true variety in shot lengths and shapes.

Manufacturer's for pure fun (that 8th is hard to beat and 6 and 11 are two great uphill 3s, add the long 13th to the list for the tough one).

I kinda like that Huntingdon Valley's get progressively easier as you play, with the 17th being the easiest hole on the course. They also allow for a large variety in set up and flexibility. I feel they are more flexible in that sense than Rolling Green's, but Rolling Green's feature a more "rigid" variety.

I could conceivably setup HVCC's to all play the same club - while at Rolling Green I don't think I could.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

Ran's been known to err before.

How is the 10th at PV a GREAT hole ?

Is it better then the 6th at NGLA ?
The 12th at ANGC ?

By what criteria do you establish its greatness ?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are a few around here which would bear comparison with the best 10th holes listed above, each within 45 minutes of my home:

10th Cavendish (MacKenzie), ferocious dog-leg par 4 with two treacherous gullies to be crossed.
10th Sandiway (Ray/Colt), 467-yard uphill par-4 double dog-leg!
10th at Reddish Vale, but only because it has the first true MacKenzie green.
And, of course, either 10th at Royal Liverpool.

[Sean Leary]

Pine Valley, Turnberry....

Sean,

How is # 10 at PV a GREAT hole ?

It plays at 142 to 161 yards to a 5,185 sq/ft green

I can see WFW, but, PV ?

Patrick,

Are you saying a par 3 can't be great based on a certain yardage to green size ratio?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Leary,

I asked you how the 10th hole at PV is GREAT.

Do you know the answer or are you being politically correct ?

If you know the answer, would you present it.

[Sean Leary]

Patrick,

I would say that the psychological impact the DA brings as well as an excellent green and greensite make it a great par 3.

I have not played WFW or Augusta. Why would you say that either are better than 10 at PV. You were obviously trying to make a point with the yardage to greensize ratio, but I'm not sure ehat that was so I am asking.  What is the yardage and greensize of 11 at Shinnecock (I am asking, as I don't know), which is considered another great shortish par 3?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Off the top of my head, I'd say the 11th at Shinnecock is about 157 uphill, usually buffeted by good winds.

I think Ben Hogan or someone of comparable talent declared it the shortest par 5 in America.

It's a wonderful par three with a green sloped substantively from back to front with four bunkers set 15 feet below the putting surface.

It's a far more demanding par 3 then the 10th at PV.

As to the 10th at PV, the DA is relatively small and doesn't exert a substantive influence on the play of the hole, which is slightly down hill.

Like the 11th at SH, it's a do or die tee shot.
But, I think the green at PV may be larger, and less sloped, with far less wind influencing the tee shot.

As to # 10 and WFW the green is narrow, sloped pretty good from back to front, surrounded by bunkers that sit below the elevated green, and at about 190 it's an intimidating shot.

As to # 12 at ANGC, it's an angled, thin green with water short and bunkers and shrubs and woods to the rear.
Shifting winds present a dilema.  It's also about 157.

I think one can't ignore the square footage or effective square footage of a green in relation to distance when evaluating the merits of a hole.

[Wayne Freeman]

Pat- with regard to the 10th at WFW and Friars,  I think a lot of how you feel at these great courses is just a matter of taste-  having only played WF twice and Friars once, I'm just trying to take it all in and simply enjoy the privilege of playing. If I played both these courses all the time maybe a detailed analysis could be made, but frankly, with these top tracks, I don't think it's very important.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I'd agree that preference is a matter of taste.

But, you said that the 10th at Friar's Head was BETTER then the 10th at WFW and I was wondering what was underlying your evaluation.

Both are terrific hole, although I think they play quite differently.

[Tom_Doak]

The tenth at Rock Creek is the first hole I found on the topo maps and was always a staple of my routings for the property.  A long downhill par 5 with the green on a bluff above the creek.  I will try to get a good picture when I'm there next week, but it's a tough one to get in scale, it is one big golf hole.

[nandoal]

The 10th at Bel-Air is a great hole.  With the Swinging Bridge to your left and a whos who of Hollywood behind you.

[TEPaul]

Patrick Mucci said;

"How is # 10 at PV a GREAT hole ?
It plays at 142 to 161 yards to a 5,185 sq/ft green."

Patrick:

Do you find something wrong with the hole or do you find something wrong with it only because it happens to be the 10th hole?