News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Walt Cutshall

Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« on: May 17, 2006, 01:06:42 PM »
I recently played Bandon Trails, and was a little disappointed with the course. I thought it had a bunch of fantastic holes, a couple that needed to be reworked, and a handful that I suspected didn't work out the way the architects had intended or had structural problems. For example, there were a few holes that had drainage issues that had to be solved. Another one or two were designed so that drives tended to cluster in that same place in the fairways.

This made me wonder who is responsible to fine-tuning a newly built course. Do the architects come back after a certain period of time, or is the course handed off to the super who makes changes as he sees fit?

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 01:13:04 PM »
Walt,

Can you elaborate on the holes to which you refer?  Which holes have which issues?  And, when did you play there and under what conditions?  I'm going to Bandon in about a month so I'm very curious.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 01:24:18 PM »
Walt,

I am not sure how it would work in a looser arrangement where the designer has his own shapers.  In a traditional arrangement where there is a designer and a builder, the builder would be responsible for drainage whereever he graded something. If the gca dictated no grading in an area, and it didn't drain, it wouldn't be the contractors fault, however.

Of course, we designers hardly ever take the blame for nagging little problems either!  We would just tell the owner that the plan didn't quite work, and the contractor would bring some equipment back to fix the problem under our direction......usually, those types of changes are made soon after construction completes, but sometimes, particularly on higher end courses, the Owner likes the idea of playing it a while and making necessary changes after a year or two.

As to bare areas, etc., in general, the industry is moving to "drop seed" contracts, where the Owner and superintendent are responsible for turf growth the second the seed is dropped.  Providing the contractor has not missed a spot with either grass or ferilizer, then the owner takes over right away.

As a practical matter, there are usually a few small drainage problems no matter how good the construction, but fewer if there was a lot of rain during construction to demonstrate where the problems were.  And drainage problems have a way of surfacing later, as water tends to find the easiest path and construction may change subsurface drainage patterns.

As my agronomist likes to tell supers of courses he consults on - you won't add drainage every year to the course, just the years you work there......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Josh Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2006, 01:16:57 AM »
Walt,

 I thought Bandon Trails had a bunch of good holes too, 18 to be exact.

What are you suggesting with "some holes that need to be reworked"?

At least the drives didn't tend to cluster in the rough.  Although that would present a cool challenge too.

I love what Bill Coore said recently in Links Magazine, to paraphrase,
"we try real hard not to make anything appear thought out" .  I know I am drawn particularly to the work of the architects that love the imperfection of Mother Nature.  I think imperfection is what makes golf more fun than any other sport.  I hope in the coming years the USA will embrace imperfection.  I like imperfections in greens also.  Bandon Trails has more than any I've ever seen.  It tore me up chipping and putting, but what a unique challenge.  Makes me want to play it more and more.  I am not sure if this is related at all to the areas that need to be reworked, but to me, imperfection is perfect.  




Walt Cutshall

Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2006, 10:14:03 AM »
My point here wasn't to argue the merits of Trails. I don't think it is possible to have a rational discussion about that course on this site. My question was about who has the responsiblity for modifications to the course during/after grow in.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2006, 10:51:04 AM »
Walt,

I'm sorry you feel you can't elaborate about the issues you perceive at Bandon Trails.  The purpose of my questions was not to start a debate about BT (I haven't played it yet), but simply to hear your views on the holes you said may need to be reworked, may not have worked out the way C&C intended or had structural problems (I'm not sure exactly what that phrase means).  

BTW, I don't agree that a rational discussion about BT isn't possible here.  Of course, there are no guarantees that all posts will be rational (see the Michelle Wie thread), but I don't think BT has risen to the level of a sacred cow that can't be criticized.  I for one enjoy hearing dissenting views, even from Mr. Kavanagh.  

Walt Cutshall

Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2006, 11:09:13 AM »
Tim-

I'd be happy to share my opinions on BT with you, but don't you want to play it with an open mind?  ;D

I've got to run out right now, but I'll shoot you a PM later.  ;)

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is responsible for grow-in pains
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2006, 11:18:31 AM »
Sounds good, Walt.  You know, as much as I respect people's opinions here, I don't think any person's view of a course is going to affect mine all that much.  I hate to admit it, but how I play is probably going to affect it more.  

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back