Curley/Shackelford to redo Carlton Oaks in SD

[Pete Lavallee]

From today's San Diego Union Tribune:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/golf/20060516-9999-lz1s16carlton.html

[Jeff Shelman]

This shows you where my mind is. I saw the title of the thread and thought it was about some South Dakota course I had never heard of.

Doh.

[David Kelly]

Despite the ridiculous new name for the course this is very good news.  

Brian Curley has been doing good work in SoCal for the last 10-15 years - Goose Creek, The Palms, ShadowRidge, Oak Quarry, Oak Valley.

[Garland Bayley]

This shows you where my mind is. I saw the title of the thread and thought it was about some South Dakota course I had never heard of.

Doh.

Jeff,

You have to forgive the Californians, especially the southern Californians. When I used to tell them I was from Montana, they would ask, "Is that in northern California?"

[Matt_Cohn]

I think I understand, but what does Curley mean when he says that the current course is "upside down"?

[Pete Lavallee]

Matt,

I believe he's referring to the front nine, where the fairways are in some cases actually below the level of the San Diego River which cuts through the middle of the course. Any severe winter rains flood the fairways on 3,4,5,6,8,9; I suspect it is the loss of income during the winter that's driving this, because if you believe the article they are not going to increase green fees when the project is complete.

[Mike Benham]

Perhap they will rid the course of the fairway crossing cart paths ...

And will the course hold 250 homes?  If the course is going to play hard and fast (the weather should allow for it), let's assume they increase the width of the fairways, where are they going to put the homes ...

Could be a nice 1-2 punch with Barona not to far away ...

[Pete Lavallee]

Mike,

Homes are going on the driving range; which is an irons only range, so its' not really that great a loss.

[Thomas_Brown]

Curley & Shack should be an interesting pairing.

Course is a perennial US Open/Amateur qualifying site w/ lots of risky, carry shots over or surrounded by water to small greens.  Sort of the anti-Rustic Canyon on options.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Pete,
That is correct regarding the fairways and helping not only with lost play days, but day-to-day maintenance. The sunken nature of some of the fairways is a disaster for drainage and in the more severe winters. Plus it all kind of looks ridiculous right now. Hopefully the entire creek area can be enhanced with some natives to look more like the natural hazard it is crying out to be!

The idea at Tuscan Creek is to create something like Rustic or Goose Creek that is fun, interesting and reasonable. I'm merely there to preach my usual nonsense about strategy and classic design. And though Brian would be just fine on his own, hopefully I can help him sell a few fun design quirks, since Lord knows there aren't too many courses in the area with much character or memorability.

Oh and no homes on the course, the only intrusion is the shifting of the clubhouse that will shorten 1 and 10 (but also may create a really neat Inverness-like dual fairway), and the loss of the range to housing.

[Pete Lavallee]

Geoff,

Will the course follow the footprint of the layout that's there now, with greensites remaining roughly in place, or are we in for a radical redesign?

[Geoff_Shackelford]

It is following the current footprint, with some changes in sequencing.

[Aidan Bradley]

Carlton Oaks was one of the very first golf courses I photographed. Below is my favourite from that shoot.

Aidan.

[Garland Bayley]

Carlton Oaks was one of the very first golf courses I photographed. Below is my favourite from that shoot.

Aidan.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d28/yeldrab/0477CarltonOaks14.jpg

Wow, even Aidan uses PhotoBucket. What was I thinking with my thread on photos.yahoo.com???

[Tim Leahy]

Matt,I believe he's referring to the front nine, where the fairways are in some cases actually below the level of the San Diego River which cuts through the middle of the course. Any severe winter rains flood the fairways on 3,4,5,6,8,9; I suspect it is the loss of income during the winter that's driving this, because if you believe the article they are not going to increase green fees when the project is complete.

I used to play there quite often and it was the best bargain in San Diego county, afternoon rate started at 12 and was $30 with a cart.  Some mid week days I was the only one on the course. The last redesign by Dye really made the course interesting.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You got the Dye right--Perry Dye!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I think that they are going to have a very difficult time building houses at Carlton Oaks.  The golf course was originally open space for the surrounding housing development.  Since the open space constitutes the golf course, then they will have to do something for mitigation.  The problem is that there are two very controversial developments that are having really problematic approval issues.  Also, there is a school overcrowding issue; that more homes will represent straws breaking the camel's back.   The course has the potential to be awesome.  Because of technology, hopefully it will be lengthened to 7400 yards and become the best tournament layout in San Diego again.  

[Jimmy Muratt]

Aidan,

Great picture.  It takes some real talent to have a photograph of a cart path turn out that well!

[Evan Fleisher]

Aidan,

Enjoy the shot with a flag in both the foreground and background.  I played the course about a million years ago (okay, it was really only about 1996 but it seems like such a long time ago!) and don't really remember all that much about it except for a lot of railroad ties around the property.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Robert,
Bad news, it's going the other way. 6600 yards, more width, more fun, more quirk and hopefully a lot of accentuating the creek and its potential beauty. I wouldn't be interested in helping out if it was attempting to become Torrey Pines South of Santee!

There will be no homes on the course. The homes are being built on the range. The routing will remain the same, but the sequencing will change (I think for the better...).

[Mike Benham]

There will be no homes on the course. The homes are being built on the range. The routing will remain the same, but the sequencing will change (I think for the better...).

And no fariway crossing cart paths?

[Thomas_Brown]

Geoff,
  I hope you do see this question.
After reading your latest Golfdom column ( http://www.golfdom.com/golfdom/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=325420 ), it's impossible not to think of Rustic as a minimalist design.

Carlton Oaks in its current form is the antithesis - maximalism -in many areas out there.  In order to take the sogginess away from many of those fairways, my guess is you'll have to move a fair amount of dirt to get decent drainage.

Also, I'm guessing you might bulldoze some of the mounds surrounding the greens.

Is this a challenge?  Do you try to flatten to re-establish the site's original form?