[Ira Fishman]

The club is working on a new history book.  It will include a blueprint of Raynor’s stick routing (which was all he provided) and a comparison to MacKenzie’s routing.

Those of us who have seen it were sworn to secrecy, but I don’t think the truth will flip the existing narrative.  If anything, all of the above somewhat overstates Raynor’s contribution to the final product.

But will it properly capture Marion Hollins’s contribution?

[John Foley]

The Raynor routing was never lost.  The club has always had it, as did Dr. MacKenzie when he took over the project. 

Wow this blows me away - for soo long the lost Raynor map was such a mystery and now we find out it was never actually lost!!

[Bret Lawrence]

Tom,


Thank you for clearing that up for us.  The wool was getting itchy on my eyes!  What has always thrown me off is the modern map, which was drawn in a style similar to Mackenzie.  Was the artist of that map unaware whose routing they were drawing or did they draw it in Mackenzie style to change the narrative? 


It makes me wonder if the club really knew whose routing map they had.  It may have never been lost, but it does appear to be rediscovered.


Seth Raynor made at least 7 trips to California.  He was hired by Del Monte Properties to design 5 courses.  3 of theses courses never got started, the greens at MPCC Dunes were changed immediately by Egan, Mackenzie and Hunter after Raynor died and then Mackenzie and Hunter took over his routing at Cypress Point made some changes and then created a Mackenzie/Hunter masterpiece.  For all those trips and all that work, Seth Raynor has nothing to show of his work in California.  Saying he made a routing of Cypress Point at the request of Marion Hollins is not really overstating his contribution. 


I would speculate that his greatest contribution was getting the Del Monte Properties Company to move 17-Mile Drive, which allowed Cypress Point to be routed the way it is played today.  Do you think you could get the Del Monte Properties Company to move that road today?  Del Monte Properties Company had great foresight and I think that is what makes Monterey so successful today.


Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

This was probably already posted elsewhere, but I had come across something similar to what Sven posted above. Looks like a two-sided brochure with different maps on either side.


The thing I noticed is that the routing of hole 5 et al on the full-color side matches what Sven posted above, whereas the map on the black and white side more closely matches reality. Nothing major, just thought it was kind of funny and that it is a weird oversight on the part of the graphic designer.


See below, click on the images to launch in Flickr so you can zoom in if you like (the originals are pretty large, but if you click through, the simple zoom might not get you close enough to read everything, you might need to click download and save the original size to your PC).


Monterey Peninsula Map Page 1 by goerges_family, on Flickr




Monterey Peninsula Map Page 2 by goerges_family, on Flickr

Charlie,


The bottom map was made by the Del Monte Properties Company so that would be the more accurate map, showing the course that was in the ground at the time.  I don’t know the date, but the picture of 7 at Pebble Beach tells you it was after Egan made his changes for the 1929 US Amateur (1928-1929).  The color map looks to have used one of the earlier routings. They likely didn’t have the newest routing at their disposal like Del Monte Properties Company.


Under the title: “Map of Pebble Beach” it reads:
“This map is NOT a reproduction of a map filed with the County Recorder
but has been prepared by the D.M.P.Co. solely for convenience of reference.”


Bret

[Nigel Islam]

Tom,


Thank you for clearing that up for us.  The wool was getting itchy on my eyes!  What has always thrown me off is the modern map, which was drawn in a style similar to Mackenzie.  Was the artist of that map unaware whose routing they were drawing or did they draw it in Mackenzie style to change the narrative? 


It makes me wonder if the club really knew whose routing map they had.  It may have never been lost, but it does appear to be rediscovered.


Seth Raynor made at least 7 trips to California.  He was hired by Del Monte Properties to design 5 courses.  3 of theses courses never got started, the greens at MPCC Dunes were changed immediately by Egan, Mackenzie and Hunter after Raynor died and then Mackenzie and Hunter took over his routing at Cypress Point made some changes and then created a Mackenzie/Hunter masterpiece.  For all those trips and all that work, Seth Raynor has nothing to show of his work in California.  Saying he made a routing of Cypress Point at the request of Marion Hollins is not really overstating his contribution. 


I would speculate that his greatest contribution was getting the Del Monte Properties Company to move 17-Mile Drive, which allowed Cypress Point to be routed the way it is played today.  Do you think you could get the Del Monte Properties Company to move that road today?  Del Monte Properties Company had great foresight and I think that is what makes Monterey so successful today.


Bret

Agree, and I think more specifically it was S.F.B. Morse who deserves credit for the foresight. He was the one who brought Hollins in and gave her some degree of carte blanche with regards to Cypress Point Club.

[Charlie Goerges]

The bottom map was made by the Del Monte Properties Company so that would be the more accurate map, showing the course that was in the ground at the time.  I don’t know the date, but the picture of 7 at Pebble Beach tells you it was after Egan made his changes for the 1929 US Amateur (1928-1929).  The color map looks to have used one of the earlier routings. They likely didn’t have the newest routing at their disposal like Del Monte Properties Company.

Indeed I'm sure you're right on the timelines and thought process. It's just that I recall when I came across these maps, they were in a single entry and described as two sides of the same brochure (If I'm remembering correctly). It was many years ago and I haven't looked at any of my materials in a long time, so I may be misremembering that fact. But it is lightly corroborated just by the identical missing bit on the lower right of the color map and matching lower left of the other map as if they are flip sides of a single sheet of paper. Again, it's no great discovery or anything, just thought it was funny that contradicting maps might have been put together in a single brochure.


Again, if I'm remembering incorrectly, no worries

[Sven Nilsen]

Charlie:


Both of those maps were noted in the thread that first discussed the Cheney Annotated Map -


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66837.0.html



The Black and White Map you posted has a date of 1928 (you can see it in the bottom right of the the map if you zoom in enough).


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Tom,


Thank you for clearing that up for us.  The wool was getting itchy on my eyes!  What has always thrown me off is the modern map, which was drawn in a style similar to Mackenzie.  Was the artist of that map unaware whose routing they were drawing or did they draw it in Mackenzie style to change the narrative? 


It makes me wonder if the club really knew whose routing map they had.  It may have never been lost, but it does appear to be rediscovered.


Seth Raynor made at least 7 trips to California.  He was hired by Del Monte Properties to design 5 courses.  3 of theses courses never got started, the greens at MPCC Dunes were changed immediately by Egan, Mackenzie and Hunter after Raynor died and then Mackenzie and Hunter took over his routing at Cypress Point made some changes and then created a Mackenzie/Hunter masterpiece.  For all those trips and all that work, Seth Raynor has nothing to show of his work in California.  Saying he made a routing of Cypress Point at the request of Marion Hollins is not really overstating his contribution. 


I would speculate that his greatest contribution was getting the Del Monte Properties Company to move 17-Mile Drive, which allowed Cypress Point to be routed the way it is played today.  Do you think you could get the Del Monte Properties Company to move that road today?  Del Monte Properties Company had great foresight and I think that is what makes Monterey so successful today.


Bret

Agree, and I think more specifically it was S.F.B. Morse who deserves credit for the foresight. He was the one who brought Hollins in and gave her some degree of carte blanche with regards to Cypress Point Club.

Do you remember we found an interesting Yale connection between S.F.B. Morse,  Max Behr and Charles Banks? Behr graduated from Yale in the Spring of 1905, Banks graduated in 1906 and Morse graduated in 1907.  Morse played on the Yale football team in 1904.  Max Behr was the Vice President of the Yale Football Association in 1904 while Charles Banks was the Secretary. Perhaps meaningless, but interesting nonetheless.

[Nigel Islam]

And Banks unlike Raynor played golf so it is possible it could mean something LOL.

[Bret Lawrence]

The bottom map was made by the Del Monte Properties Company so that would be the more accurate map, showing the course that was in the ground at the time.  I don’t know the date, but the picture of 7 at Pebble Beach tells you it was after Egan made his changes for the 1929 US Amateur (1928-1929).  The color map looks to have used one of the earlier routings. They likely didn’t have the newest routing at their disposal like Del Monte Properties Company.

Indeed I'm sure you're right on the timelines and thought process. It's just that I recall when I came across these maps, they were in a single entry and described as two sides of the same brochure (If I'm remembering correctly). It was many years ago and I haven't looked at any of my materials in a long time, so I may be misremembering that fact. But it is lightly corroborated just by the identical missing bit on the lower right of the color map and matching lower left of the other map as if they are flip sides of a single sheet of paper. Again, it's no great discovery or anything, just thought it was funny that contradicting maps might have been put together in a single brochure.


Again, if I'm remembering incorrectly, no worries

Charlie,


My mistake.  I’m not sure I understood the original question.  I looked these up in the UCLA Map Library, according to the stamp on one of the maps and they do appear to be two pages from the same entry.  After closer examination the color map appears to be made by the Del Monte Properties Co. as well.  The purple stamp is almost a distraction in the lower left hand corner because it kind of draws your eye to focus on that stamp.  If you cover up the purple stamp you will notice your eyes are drawn to Monterey Peninsula Country Club with a large arrow pointing to the site of the Club.  Cypress Point Club is on the map but it seems purposely unlabeled.  The only thing really labeled on this color map are the Del Monte structures and the town names along with Pebble Beach and Del Monte Golf Courses.  It is odd they would have conflicting routings on two maps likely made by the same company, but perhaps the color map took longer to make and was harder to change than the Map of Pebble Beach?  I don’t have an answer for you unfortunately, but the color map is trying to direct our attention to the Monterey Peninsula Country Club and the flip side is clearly directing our attention to Pebble Beach.  Not sure if this helps, but your memory appears to be spot on.


Bret

[Matthew Delahunty]

I've added my 2 cents worth in the original thread

[Charlie Goerges]

The bottom map was made by the Del Monte Properties Company so that would be the more accurate map, showing the course that was in the ground at the time.  I don’t know the date, but the picture of 7 at Pebble Beach tells you it was after Egan made his changes for the 1929 US Amateur (1928-1929).  The color map looks to have used one of the earlier routings. They likely didn’t have the newest routing at their disposal like Del Monte Properties Company.

Indeed I'm sure you're right on the timelines and thought process. It's just that I recall when I came across these maps, they were in a single entry and described as two sides of the same brochure (If I'm remembering correctly). It was many years ago and I haven't looked at any of my materials in a long time, so I may be misremembering that fact. But it is lightly corroborated just by the identical missing bit on the lower right of the color map and matching lower left of the other map as if they are flip sides of a single sheet of paper. Again, it's no great discovery or anything, just thought it was funny that contradicting maps might have been put together in a single brochure.


Again, if I'm remembering incorrectly, no worries

Charlie,


My mistake.  I’m not sure I understood the original question.  I looked these up in the UCLA Map Library, according to the stamp on one of the maps and they do appear to be two pages from the same entry.  After closer examination the color map appears to be made by the Del Monte Properties Co. as well.  The purple stamp is almost a distraction in the lower left hand corner because it kind of draws your eye to focus on that stamp.  If you cover up the purple stamp you will notice your eyes are drawn to Monterey Peninsula Country Club with a large arrow pointing to the site of the Club.  Cypress Point Club is on the map but it seems purposely unlabeled.  The only thing really labeled on this color map are the Del Monte structures and the town names along with Pebble Beach and Del Monte Golf Courses.  It is odd they would have conflicting routings on two maps likely made by the same company, but perhaps the color map took longer to make and was harder to change than the Map of Pebble Beach?  I don’t have an answer for you unfortunately, but the color map is trying to direct our attention to the Monterey Peninsula Country Club and the flip side is clearly directing our attention to Pebble Beach.  Not sure if this helps, but your memory appears to be spot on.


Bret

Bret,


Your analysis of the focus of the maps being the reason the difference was allowed to exist makes logical sense to me. Again, I didn't have a particular question, just the observation. In the days when artwork was harder to produce than it is now, it makes perfect sense to accept some inaccuracies in less important aspects of the map in order to get the project done in a timely manner. It may be no more complicated than that.

[Paul Jones]

Tom,


Do you know who is writing the book?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Do you know who is writing the book?

They hired David Normoyle to do all of the historical research . . . I am not sure if he is actually writing the book himself or not.

[Mark_Fine]

David is also writing the book.

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