[Kyle Harris]

After playing Reading CC this past weekend, I am still quite enamored with the alps-like 11th hole. An absolute stand out if I've ever seen one and as good a hole as I've ever played.

What other singular holes on "second tier" courses stand out?

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

   I agree with your choice of #11 at Reading. I seem to recall some discussion that it is not an original hole.

    On the "Reading " thread I mentioned a hole at Rock Manor in Wilm. De.(#13, I believe) .That is probably a third tier course.

[Jordan Wall]

Kyle.
Good Question.

A local muni about 45 minutes from my house has this awesome hole.

Legion Memorial GC.
#8
307 yards

If you hit an iron, bunkers protect the dogleg, which is ever so slight.

The green rises over seven feet from front left to back right, and back right is a punchbowl little area that you cannot tell is there from the fairway.  A stream guards to left side of the hole, which you really cannot tellhow far it goes, though it runs the entire hole.  Behind and to the left of the green are hidden bunklers.  Very, very cool hole on a second tier course if there was ever one.

[Glenn Spencer]

14-Moraine
4-Springfield CC
12-Holston Hills
12- Broadmoor CC
3- CC of Hudson
13-Huntington CC
11-Coldstream CC

[Phil_the_Author]

#1, 5, 9, 13, 15 & 16 on Bethpage Red.

I am so surprised at you Kyle as you are such a big Red Course fan!

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

I had quite a few from the Red Course in mind, also Lulu Country Club in this area.

[Ted Kramer]

#13 and #16 at Lido. . .
two of my favorite holes anywhere.


-Ted

[wsmorrison]

I'm not sure what a second tier course is but Cobb's Creek has some outstanding holes.  They've changed the routing progression a few times so I'm not sure how its played these days.

Merion West has some holes that would be among the finer holes on most any course including 4,5,9,11,12,14-18 with 6-8 being quirky and lots of fun.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The 8th at LuLu qualifies as do the current 3rd and 17th at Cobbs Creek.

[Tim Pitner]

Philadelphia must have a lot of dynamite holes . . . or a lot of second-tier courses.  

[Kyle Harris]

Audible yuks.

"Second Tier" in Philadelphia includes Lulu, Rolling Green, Huntingdon Valley, Manny's...

Of course, when your first tier is Pine Valley, Merion East and Aronimink - who's complaining?

[Tim Pitner]

Yeah, just kidding Kyle.  I can't say I'm that familiar with those courses but it seems like you have plenty from which to choose.  I only wish Denver had such a collection of courses.  

[wsmorrison]

Aronimink on the same tier as Pine Valley and Merion?  Kyle, young and stupid is no way to go through life (inspired by Dean Wormer )  The first tier is Pine Valley and Merion.  

The second tier includes Rolling Green, Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster, Philadelphia Country Club, Aronimink, Lehigh, Manufacturers and LuLu; probably in that order.  Aronimink has a fabulous set of greens but the hole varieties (especially the par 4s) are not varied enough and the land is inferior to Philadelphia Country Club, Manufacturers and especially Rolling Green.  Rolling Green is superior to Aronimink although plenty of people would argue that including my favorite Atlantan or is it Atlantian?  

[Jesse Jones]

#5-#11-#18 at Bulle Rock..

[Mike_Sweeney]

Would the Philly guys consider the 5th at Cobbs to fit this category? It has been so long since I played it, but it is a unique hole?

From the course website, "Arguably the signature hole on the course, the demanding 5th Hole requires both strategy and accuracy. With Cobb's Creek bisecting the fairway the golfer has two options, choose the fairway to the right of the creek or to the left. The easier tee shot will attack the left side of the creek but will offer a testy approach shot that must cross the creek again. Those opting for the right side of the fairway will have a risky tee shot but will be rewarded with a much simpler approach shot. The green is fairly flat and slopes slightly from back to front but is closely guarded by the creek on the entire left side. Don't let your nerves get the best of you and achieving par will feel like a birdie. Good luck!"

[Bill Shotzbarger]

I can't believe we're calling all of these GREAT courses "second-tier". I know Philly is the best area for golden age architecture anywhere but I have to think the first tier includes more than two top 10 courses. I refuse to call HVCC, MGCC, Aronimink and RGGC second tier courses. Second tier courses wouldn't be in the top 100 (of any ranking).

But to get back to the thread, the now 9th at Walnut Lane and the 2nd at Melrose are two great holes on 2nd tier courses.

Wayne, I agree with all of the holes you said on Merion West, but you forgot number 7! The approach is very similar to the 11th at the East with the creek winding its way across the front and around the right side of the green. A few weeks ago I hit 5 iron off the tee, had lob wedge into the green and still made a bogey.

[wsmorrison]

You made a convincing point there, Bill.  These are all great golf courses but there is some distance between 2nd and the remainder.  But yes, they aren't really second tier clubs.  I just didn't think that Aronimink was a tier above the ones that my young friend, Kyle, mentioned.  So I made that top tier overly selective.

Number 7 is a terrific hole.  I usually hit 7-iron then gap wedge.  But it is a tough green (as are many on the West) and little misses can result in others.  I think of the 7th as part of the quirky but excellent 6-8 stretch, the shortest par 3,4 and 4 stretch maybe in all of golf.  As you said, it sure isnt' a pushover stretch by any means.  There's a wide scoring spectrum on these holes.

Mike,

Absolutely, that's a great hole as is the par 4 on the ridge above the 600-yard par 5.  I can't remember that hole.  The long par 4 10th (?) paralleling the par 4 along the fence where the hotdog guy used to sell food from the other side.  That's an awfully good par 4 with the valley below the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Malone,

The 11th at Reading CC is an original hole.  It's also would likely make my top 18 holes in the Del Valley, topping a more famous one where we had dinner the other night.

Bill S.

Your mention of #2 at Melrose is a great one.  What a fabulous, memorable, unknown hole.

Tom Paul needs to get back over there to look at it.

Wayne/Mike,

If I might be so bold, I'd really partial to the following holes at Cobbs Creek; 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 17.

That's not bad for a lowly muni, huh?

Now if they ever get some real greens that don't resemble the top of my head.

[wsmorrison]

Hey, Mike C.  For those of us that are Melrose challenged, can you please describe the 2nd there?  I'll take a look at Google Earth to see what you're talking about--from above at least.  Thanks!  #11 at Reading CC must be something special for it to top the 11th you refer to!

[wsmorrison]

Believe me, Bill, considering my time at Rolling Green, it is despite my being a former "homer" that I feel it is first among equals in the tier below PVGC and MGC.  It just has everything needed for a great golf course, as good a topography as anywhere in the country--save maybe Augusta National say friends that know.  It has a wonderful variety of long and short holes and a routing progression that flows beautifully.  There is a truly great set of Flynn greens, maybe the best Flynn greens in the state.  If only the bunkers could be restored to the size and shapes of the original design--the recent photographs found in the Library Company of Philadelphia will allow for that, then along with continued tree management, the course will really come into its own.  Maybe I do jump ahead a bit and consider the full potential, but isn't that the architectural underpinning that allows this?  In this sense it truly is great.  But don't believe me, ask Ran    

What Lehigh cannot have is a great collection of long holes.  The result being that it cannot test the best players like Rolling Green can in its way and Aronimink does in its different way.  Lehigh is a great course but it doesn't have all the tools.  Its like a Richie Ashburn--great fielding, running, hitting for average, on base percentage and arm, but no power.  Still a Hall of Famer though

I agree about adding some Bobby Weed to the list of great holes on second-tier courses.  I'll have to go back soon to White Manor and see again for myself.

[Jason Mandel]

Great second tier?  Several at the new Weed layout at White Manor.  #4, #7, #14.

Bill,

I hear a lot of talk about 7 and 4 being cool holes, but 14 normally gets overlooked, although I think its a really cool hole.  Were you thinking of the par 3 14th with the false front and elephants hump on the green or were you thinking of 15, the short par 4 with the centerline bunker?

Jason

[Mike_Cirba]

Hey, Mike C.  For those of us that are Melrose challenged, can you please describe the 2nd there?  I'll take a look at Google Earth to see what you're talking about--from above at least.  Thanks!  #11 at Reading CC must be something special for it to top the 11th you refer to!

Wayne,

If you look for it, this is the hole;

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Huntingdon+Valley,+PA&ll=40.054991,-75.104266&spn=0.003827,0.010729&t=k&om=1

What you can see is that it's a widely swinging dogleg left par five to a green with some really large bunkers short on both sides, the right one extending all the way to the green.

You can also see that tall, mature trees run down the left side of the hole.

What you can't see is the roller-coaster nature of this part of the property, or the fact that the left side at the tree line falls off precipitously to doom and despair.  

At about the 250 mark from the tee, the landform drops into a deep bowl which can help you or hurt you depending on the length and angle of the drive.  The daring play flirts with the trees on the left side and gets enough of a turbo boost to go for the green in two, although the approach might be blind depending on how far up the next hill the drive has carried.  A shot entering the bowl but hanging out further to the right is left with a very awkward downhill/sidehill lie and almost certainly needs to lay up short of the bunkers, but because the hole is only about 520 yards, may get stupid and go for it anyway.

Up around the green things get very narrowed and tight.  OB and the clubhouse lurk just behind and the left side tumbles down a steep bank.

Essentially, on the hole you are trying to "ride the ridge" as close to death as nerve allows.   It's a hole where you can make 3, or make 8 just as quickly.  

[Jason Mandel]

Bill,

Here's a pic of the oft talked about 15th courtest of James Bennett's picture taking

ps. I birdied it on Sat

The drop off from the left right side of the fairway to the left has to be about 30 feet or so and is totally blind if your on the bottom near the big bunker.




Hope all is well.
Jason

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