What do they tell you about the golf course ?

[Dave Bourgeois]

Thanks for the replies.  This is of course what I had always believed about PV. I was however surprised that an argument for accomodation would be made based on fairway width while not taking into account the rest of the design of the course.  

Regardless of how short (100 yards in spots) some of the forced carries are, I know based on folks I get paired with, how intimidating any forced carry can be.  All in all nothing seems trivial about golf at Pine Valley and it looks like a mistake compounds the score like not many other venues in golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You know, it's funny Pat, in the couple of years I've been reading and posting here I cannot recall one instance in which you conceeded a point.

That's probably the same reason you didn't fare well as a caddy at PV.

Is this discussion about win-loss stats or the stated issue ?

You are the one guilty of chastising all positions contrary to your own.

I didn't chastise your position, I just disagreed with it and offered reasonable support for my position.

YOU chose, and constantly choose to personalize the discussion when the debate doesn't go your way.

Your typical method is to make your point, when that is proven wrong you try to change the subject,

Could you cite examples of that ?
Can you offer proof to substantiate your statement ?

and when called on that you stop posting on a particular thread.

Could you cite examples of that ?
Or is this just another fabrication on your part ?

I am very happy to recognize credit when due and have done so numerous times, but on this topic you have come up short. You list a series of points that I'll go through one by one and they do not lead a prudent man to reach any conclusion. That is not to say they could not lead you to your pre-concieved conclusion however.  :-


1) *Women Playing the golf course. - Who cares, I spoke of a woman playing the course in the last 10 years. The course was not designed to accommodate her so how can you say any different based on a picture from so many years ago with no ancillary evidence.

A woman playing the golf course provides evidence that the golf course accomodated her.

The reason the picture is from so many years ago has to do with the relevance of the golf course as Crump designed it, not as it evolved 88 years later.

The closer you go to 1918 or earlier, the more support the position gains.  

2) Wide fairways - I've laid out my position on this, we disagree, do me this one favor though and if you can give an answer that holds water I'll concede the full point; name one hole at Pine Valley that fully accommodates a typical 18 handicap player.

Let's start with the first hole

3) Forward tees. - I don't care if the players tee off at the beginning of the fairway, the course is so unforgiving that clearing the initial hazards are only part of the issue.

That's not true.
Forward tees with super wide fairways make for an accomodating field of play.  You just don't see it.

4) Caliber of Membership. - Not sure what you mean, but if you're driving to the diversity of handicaps then I'll reiterate, this has nothing to do with Crump's intentions. Does Porsche only sell cars to race car drivers?

This just shows that you don't get it.

5) Early photos with few trees in the play zones - This does not change the fact that those same areas were built out as extreme hazards which should be avoided at all costs.

The discussion wasn't about what occured subsequent to Crump's design and construction.  You continue to miss the point by viewing the issue in the context of 2006.

I agree now (and if you read clearly, always have) that the trees in and around the bunkers should be removed. My contention that this would not change how you plan out a hole from the tee has not changed though.

We disagree

6) Great architectural advisors - Do you have some sort of proof that any one of them advised Crump to build this course with accommodations built in for the higher handicapper?

Do you have any proof otherwise ?

Do you think the advisors totally disregarded the play of the higher handicap player ?

Is that found in evidence in any of their golf courses ?

If so that would be quite helpful to your position, now is as good a time as any to reveal it. If not, then it's just another baseless position representing the straws you're grasping at.

Try connecting the dots instead of just looking at each dot seperately

7) Winter course easily accessable to Philadelphia. -  

That was the sell to prospective members.
No where does the sell indicate that only championship, scratch handicap players need apply, or would be welcome.
The club offered itself as a club open for winter play that was easily accessible to Philadelphia.

There were no caveats directing high handicap players to seek membership elsewhere.


8 ) Need for 200-250 Members - Porsche needs to sell cars as well. Show me one hole that supports your position and we'll analyze that hole.

Start with the first hole.

There weren't 200-250 championship or scratch handicap players in the entire United States in 1913, let alone greater Philadelphia area, the target market for PV, hence, they knew from the begining that higher handicaps would be members and need to be accomodated by the golf course.

= accomodation - or maybe not.

You just don't see, and/or don't get it

[JESII]

Patrick,

Perhaps you could end this exercise by providing your definition of accommodation. Because this last post of yours really makes me think our understandings of the term are pretty far apart.

I say that because you list the first hole as accommodating to the higher handicapper. Holy mackerel man[/color], that hole is not accommodating to anyone. What does the higher handicapper do when he misses the green to the right? How about in the right bunker off the tee? Oh, I forgot, it is only remotely possible to miss one of those fairways, right? Are you sure you're thinking of the Pine Valley down in Clementon, NJ? I wonder if we took a poll on here, of people who have played the course, how many have played a more difficult first hole anywhere. I know I have not, but I'm sure there's one out there.

I would define accommodate as:
from Websters online[/i][/u]
Main Entry: ac·com·mo·date
Pronunciation: &-'kä-m&-"dAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -dat·ed; -dat·ing
Etymology: Latin accommodatus, past participle of accommodare, from ad- + commodare to make fit, from commodus suitable -- more at COMMODE
transitive senses
1 : to make fit, suitable, or congruous
2 : to bring into agreement or concord : RECONCILE
3 : to provide with something desired, needed, or suited (as a helpful service, a loan, or lodgings)
4 a : to make room for b : to hold without crowding or inconvenience
5 : to give consideration to : allow for <accommodate the special interests of various groups>
intransitive senses : to adapt oneself; also : to undergo visual

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

What does the higher handicapper do when he misses the green to the right?

Your shortcoming is that you continue to view the play of non-scratch golfers in the context of a scratch golfer, vis a vis, the "greens in regulation" mentality.

At 399 yards, with a 200 yard drive and a 160 yard 2nd shot, that leaves the golfer a third shot from about 20 yards from the green, which is very wide in front.  It's unlikely that he'll miss the green from that range.[/color]

How about in the right bunker off the tee?

Anything is possible, but, from the front tee, that's a very wide fairway and the golfer doesn't have to hit the ball very far to get near the corner of the dogleg.  If the golfer should miss the fairway, if he had a GOOD caddy, he'd be instructed to play to the fairway, not the green, so that he could hit his 3rd shot to the green.[/color]

Oh, I forgot, it is only remotely possible to miss one of those fairways, right? Are you sure you're thinking of the Pine Valley down in Clementon, NJ? I wonder if we took a poll on here, of people who have played the course, how many have played a more difficult first hole anywhere. I know I have not, but I'm sure there's one out there.

I don't find the first hole nearly as difficult as you do.
The difficulty in the first hole is presented when the hole is cut to the back of the green.  But, if the golfer is smart, or has a GOOD caddy, the play is to the front-center of the green, well short of the narrowing rear portion, taking a two putt and going to the 2nd tee.

Course management is important at PV and if one uses their head, or has a GOOD caddy, tacking around the golf course isn't as difficult as you make it out to be.

If the golf course was as unaccomodating as you say
all of those 5, 10, 15 and 20 handicap members would never play or finish the golf course.[/color]


I would define accommodate as:
from Websters online[/i][/u]
Main Entry: ac·com·mo·date
Pronunciation: &-'kä-m&-"dAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -dat·ed; -dat·ing
Etymology: Latin accommodatus, past participle of accommodare, from ad- + commodare to make fit, from commodus suitable -- more at COMMODE
transitive senses
1 : to make fit, suitable, or congruous
2 : to bring into agreement or concord : RECONCILE
3 : to provide with something desired, needed, or suited (as a helpful service, a loan, or lodgings)
4 a : to make room for b : to hold without crowding or inconvenience
5 : to give consideration to : allow for <accommodate the special interests of various groups>
intransitive senses : to adapt oneself; also : to undergo visual


You probably missed # 5, so I'd suggest that you go back and reread it.[/color]
 

[JESII]

You really are hysterical. When did I ever mention hitting the green (or missing it rather) in regulation. I've seen people putt it off that green to the right and down the hill only to need 3, 4 or more to get back on. Now you are going to state that a 15 or 20 handicapper has such control of their game that they can place a 200 yard drive near the right corner of the dogleg, then hit a well controlled 160 yard shot into the 25 yard wide approach without much concern for the death to the right. Why don't you ask some of the 15 or 20 handicappers on this site if they have that sort of control over their games.

You state that you "don't find the first hole nearly as difficult as I do". It is the #3 handicap hole on a course with a rating of 153 / 155. I would say you're in the minority on this one.


Is #5 in that definition of accommodation the one you are going to use? Or is there something you'd add to that? I think your written definition of the term "accommodate the higher handicapper" would do wonders to resolving this discussion.