Who's played North dakota and what did you think?

[Garland Bayley]

One other thing -- the greater Portland area does have a few public courses of note that likely get little attention.

So which public courses in Portland would cause LND to get little more than a footnote of attention?

[Tim Pitner]

Jay,

I think it's interesting you make a comparison between a green at Redlands Mesa and one at Mike Strantz's Tot Hill Farm.  I think Engh and Strantz share a lot of similarities.  Their designs are modern, but strategic.  They are certainly not minimalist, and the boldness of their courses tends to polarize opinions.  Someone who's played more of their respective courses could elaborate but, to me, it seems like they have much in common.

[Jay Flemma]

Yes they do share alot of similarities, Tim, they certainly do.

Can you say Mackenzie?

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Eastmoreland to name just one is a better layout than Links of ND.

You're still playing dodge ball around my original question -- please tell me how the first six holes at Links of ND are anythingmore than simply pedestrian holes that have the benefit of such a unique background setting?

Ditto a number of the holes on the back side with the exception of the 14th and 15th and 17th holes.

I'll say this again in case you missed it -- isolated courses are nothing to automatically rave about it because they are isolated.

[Tim Pitner]

Yes they do share alot of similarities, Tim, they certainly do.

Can you say Mackenzie?

I was going to say "overwrought," but to each their own.

Who's the architect of Links of North Dakota?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Eastmoreland to name just one is a better layout than Links of ND.

In your dreams maybe! Without sitting down with the scorecards to help recall the couses, and do a hole by hole, I would estimate LND would win in the region of 15 holes to 3.

You're still playing dodge ball around my original question -- please tell me how the first six holes at Links of ND are anythingmore than simply pedestrian holes that have the benefit of such a unique background setting?

I am not dodging anything! I simply countered your outlandish statement about LND being so insignificant w.r.t. major metro areas. Although I have not played any of the other remote couses you mention, I do not doubt they may very well be better than LND.

Ditto a number of the holes on the back side with the exception of the 14th and 15th and 17th holes.

I'll say this again in case you missed it -- isolated courses are nothing to automatically rave about it because they are isolated.

You really have trouble with the English language. Where on earth did I ever indicate that I missed it, or disagree with it, or discussed it, or anything.

[Jay Flemma]

Architect at Linx of ND is Stephen Kay...he did Architect's Club and McCulloughs, among others.  Nice guy...very bright. Downright professorial.  We did a lecture together once on "Can you copyright a golf hole."  We both said no, another guy said yes. (Bob Clarida)

[Andy Hughes]

Yes they do share alot of similarities, Tim, they certainly do.

Can you say Mackenzie?

Jay, interesting, can you elaborate on that a little?

[Jay Flemma]

Briefly, both have mack as an idol, both employ the :line of charm doctrine mackenzie loved and quotes from Behr all the time.  They both do stellar risk reward par fives and they both like severe green contours.

Just for openers.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Help me out with something -- you rave about Links of ND and then tell me I'm out there in left field but you never -- repeat NEVER -- discuss the merits / lack therof of Links of ND. Let me just suggest to you this -- when you make some bold statement about the merits of a course it would be nice for the poster to provide some clear details. Don't you think?

I stated very clearly that Links of ND is not worthy of such national acclaim. Get it.

Is Links of ND one of the best public courses in all of ND? Yes, I concede that. However, for a course to achieve top 100 modern status as it has consistently with Golfweek is simply not credible given the vast range of public courses I have played throughout the nation. Links gets plenty of brownie points because of the isolated location and unfortunately too many people here on GCA have got Sand Hills-itis -- the illness in thinking that remote locations mean ipso facto some really superb golf course.

Links of ND takes advantage of an isolated location -- in Ray about 20 miles east of Williston and minus a number of holes --roughly just over a third of the course -- is not that deep in terms of green complexity, routing or overall shot values.

I mentioned Eastmoreland and you simply derided it. Really. Eastmoreland has a number of unique and interesting design features and given the hordes that play it has done fairly well in being still playable.

If you want to see a range of solid public courses that get dissed by many raters / magazines check out the previous area of western Colorado and Utah and New Mexico as a region chock full of surprising golf options that are very modest in fees charged and have a broad range of architectural heft to offer.

Frankly, the idea that public golf in the Northern Plains is cutting edge stuff is truly misplaced because other areas of the country -- see my example above -- are clearly a good ways beyond.

Anyone conteplating a special trip to simply play Links of ND is really barking up a tree that doesn't deliver the real fruit for the time and $$ you expend.

[Jay Flemma]

I'll be writing more soon, but I see where Matt is coming from...but at BUlly Pulpit!  Very good course...but a cople places that were strange (fake grass for the womens tee box on 15...bad form) and a couple holes like 3 that were strange.  Very good course, but just a little short of Black Mesa, Tobacco or even Redlands, Lakota.

Links of North Dakota tomorrow.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Bully Pulpit is wrongly routed because until you get to the final 4-5 holes the bulk of the round is being played in meadow type land that is far removed from the Badlands area the course touts when playing there.

Bully Pulpit needs to have more holes -- not less -- in the area you find when you begin the final five holes.

Frankly, Mike Hurdzan did a nice job with the early holes but the flatness and ho-hum nature of that part of the course is what makes Bully Pulpit far less than what it could have been.

The only similarity between Bully Pulpit and Black Mesa is that their first names begin with the letter "B' -- other than that they are on two completely different pages.

[Jim Johnson]

...but at Bully Pulpit!  Very good course...but a couple places that were strange (fake grass for the womens tee box on 15...bad form) ...  Very good course, but just a little short of Black Mesa, Tobacco or even Redlands, Lakota.

JJ

[Brad Klein]

Detailed discussions of the merits of the various courses aside, a trip out there to North Dakota is a spectacular event and a great way to enjoy golf without spending a whole lot of money (once you get there). Or as I like to say, the green fees are $50 but it costs you $1,000 to get there.

Last July Golfweek took 40 raters on a "Prairie Dog Special" bus trip for four days to Hawktree, Bully Pulpit, Links of North Dakota and Minot CC. Architects Jim Engh and Stephen Kay joined us for parts of the trip and spoke at their courses with spirited discussion (and disagreement) to follow. And the governor of the state, John Hoeven (an avid golfer and member of Minot CC) greeted us at his home course.

Overall it was a wonderful experience to see such a hospitable place, and we all enjoyed the diversity of things to do there (esp. in Medora). Most of us who have been on many such trips agreed it was, overall, one of the best experiences we had. Maybe not the greatest set of golf courses, but one of the most enjoyable and visually interesting ways to spend four days at golf with people who shared that interest.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I have not seen Bully Pulpit; the Dakotas and Alaska are the only states I've never visited.  Perhaps the course would have been "better" if they had put more holes in the badlands, however my understanding is that they could not afford to do so because the construction costs per hole were so much more expensive in that terrain, and the realities of rounds and green fee rates in North Dakota put them on a strict budget.  Sometimes good design is understanding the big picture.

[Garland Bayley]

As far as having a golfer, not a cartballer, having a good time in a once in a life time visit, or perhaps  as an infrequent visitor is concerned, Bully Pulpit beats Black Mesa hands down IMO.

Black Mesa has lots of blind shots, and hidden hazards. A stranger to the course playing cartball could run up ahead and take a look, or use the detailed GPS system in the cart. A golfer, who already has had added significant distance to his round by being forced to take round about cart paths to the fairway from the tee probably will just be making best guesses and firing away. If you can play Black Mesa enough to get to know it well, it clearly is great fun. But, for the occasional visitor Bully Pulpit wins with strategically placed bunkering forcing decisions, and allowing reward for risks taken; strategically incorporated streams for hazards; and more ground features than Matt would have you believe.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I don't doubt what you said concerning the issue of cost to use the kind of land you mentioned / re: Bully Pulpit. I don't see the rest of the course -- prior to getting to roughly the 13th hole as being anything more than acceptable -- I would not trek more than 100 miles to play there if that was the only aspect of the layout.

I only rate on what is there -- no doubt the woulda, coulda, shoulda school makes for interesting dialogue.

The 14th hole takes you up into the land but the par-3 15th is a gem of a hole. If for nothing else the trip to Bully Pulpit is really to see the hole. When you step on the back tee and have to face a strong wind -- from any direction -- you'd best be able to hit the purest of shots. Anything that moves left is deadsville as in D-E-A-D-S-V-I-L-L-E ! ! !

I like to see such imagination and clearly the land there provides for it.

I concur with the previous comments on fake grass at the women's tee. That's not smart or necessary.

When the pin is back right it takes a herculean shot to land and STAY there. Go off the back and you might need a 70 degree super lob wedge !

A very fair hole and one that really provides the connection to where you're playing.

Tom, I "understand the big picture" but I simply evaluate things on the finished product. Are there always other concerns? Sure. But an evaluation doesn't give brownie points out simply because of them. If that were the case then someone like Eric Bergstol should get a bucket load of brownie points in successfully negotiating the maze of bureaucracy to get Bayonne GC built and designed.

Garland:

Black Mesa has only a few blind shots of note. The long par-4 5th comes quickly to mind -- ditto the par-4 10th -- neither of them requires some sort of special golf skill to handle them if the player bothers to drive ahead and see where they are going. If the player has a detailed yardage book with pictures you can easily see where to go.

You also speak about "hidden hazards." How is that unfair? I also don't recall any being so penal as to thrwart the golfer who plays smartly. You again use the tag "many" in regards to these "hidden hazards" -- please list all of the "many" "hidden hazards" you believe are present.

You also opine that Bully Pulpit has a slew of "ground features." Again, that's rather vague on your part. The course is quite flat and yes there is an element of the streams coming into play but Black Mesa collectively is miles beyond Bully Pulput. Not even night and day.

The idea that someone needs to play Black Mesa "x" amount of times in order to enjoy it is simply an error in your part. The Baxter Spann design is on better land, has the more diverse range of holes, is better routed and class upon a far greater dexterity with shot values. More than happy to debate any point in real detail and not vague unsupported generalities.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland:

Black Mesa has only a few blind shots of note. The long par-4 5th comes quickly to mind -- ditto the par-4 10th -- neither of them requires some sort of special golf skill to handle them if the player bothers to drive ahead and see where they are going.

C'mon Matt - get out of the cart and play golf. Your famous memory (famous for how well it forgets) seems to have forgotten the Signature blind shot, the drive on one.

If the player has a detailed yardage book with pictures you can easily see where to go.

So golf there is not slow enough? I should buy a yardage book and study it too to slow things down?
Actually, why would I buy a yardage book for a place I am going to play once? Just another part of our throw away society?
IMHO, resorts should do like Nat. Park trails. The guide book can be returned for the next person. You only buy if you take it with you.

You also speak about "hidden hazards." How is that unfair? I also don't recall any being so penal as to thrwart the golfer who plays smartly. You again use the tag "many" in regards to these "hidden hazards" -- please list all of the "many" "hidden hazards" you believe are present.

...

Who said it was unfair? Every bunker out of sight on a blind shot is a hidden hazard.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Black Mesa has only a few blind shots ...

How's this list.
Tee shots #1, #4 (leftmost tee), #7, #10, #14.
2nd shots #6, #9, #13
Green surfaces hidden by elevation on approach, #16, #17

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Stop with the silliness -- when you say buying and / or having a yardage book makes no sense. It makes perfect sense for anyone going there for the first time as it does for any number of top tier courses. If you think it's part of another element of a throw away society then by all means don't buy one for your own sake.

You inserted "hidden hazards" into the mix as some sort of weakness on the part of Black Mesa. If you don't see them as such please step up to the plate and say so. Plenty of courses have "hidden hazards" -- you might have heard of a few like TOC, County Down, Lahinch, etc, etc.

If you think the 1st hole is truly blind (as in 100%) you are mistaken. Only the extreme right side is out of the view for golfers. From the back tee the player can see the ball landing on the left side of the fairway. In fact, if most people heed the appropriate advice and play the correct tees the entire landing areas, save for the very extreme right side, will be in view -- this is the case from the middle and front markers.

Let me address your other inclusions -- the par-3 4th can be seen. If you want to play your tee shot from the extreme left by the 3rd hole then it's blind.

You argue the green surfaces at #16 and #17 are blind -- so what? How does that make the hole inferior or of poor design? You inserted blind into the debate so as to affix some definition of the course being less so than Bully Pulpit for first time visitors. Really?

You erroneously conclude that the downhill 7th -- is also blind. Wrongo. The elevated tee provides a total view of the hole. You must have had your eyes closed when you came through that part of the property. The par-5 13th is a straight ahead type play unless the player is on the far left side and can be blocked. However, if a player shows any diligence they can easily see where the landing area is and play accordingly.

Garland, your memory -- let alone your eyes -- is a bit shaky. I'm happy to help refresh your memory. In regards to your eyes let me recommend a good pair of glasses.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

Pay attention! My critique only applies to enjoyment for the onetime play. I said it was a course I would love to learn and play often! I am not criticizing the architecture, other than to say I much prefer a one time play at Bully Pulpit over Black Mesa.

As for my memory, you can ask Pat Brockwell whether if #4 is set up to play from the left most tee, then much of the green is blind. Why does Ran's review say "Tees further left leave the golfer with a view of just the right edge of the green - perhaps the 4th should be considered New Mexico's version of the Lahinch's Dell Hole!"?

Don't criticize my memory and eyesight when you can't even get that much right.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I'll throw just one error you made forward so you can grasp the point -- you mentioned #7 was BLIND. Where is that so partner ?

You also stated other conclusions such as "hidden hazards" without adding anything more than a quick statement unsupported by any connection as to whether the design itself is flawed. I'll break the news to you again -- there are a number of outstanding courses with "hidden hazards" and they are not thought in less light even with the first play.

Check out the friendly suggestion for glasses because when you played Black Mesa the one time you missed plenty. Enjoy Bully Pulpit for what it provides -- I do agree the course has plenty to offer -- but only when you get to the better part of the property. By the way -- for what it's worth -- I'd certanly select the par-3 15th at BP as one of my personal favorite short holes anywhere.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

It is clear that either you rebelled against your parents and teachers making you do your homework or you got so tired of it you refuse to do it now. It is a simple matter to go to Ran's review to find the great advantage that can be gained by driving blind over the bunker on the left on #7.

Furthermore, you don't appear to understand "Pay attention!". I have not been discussing architectural quality here, but the personal preference for having fun in a single visit to a course.

About #7 in his review of BM, Ran wrote, "This hole takes getting to know, a laudable trait." With this I totally agree, and it applies (as I have written) to most of Black Mesa. Having such laudable traits is a measure of the quality of the architecture of the course. It has nothing to do with my enjoyment of a one time play.

Since you find yourself incapable of comprehending what I write, don't expect me to respond further to your blather about Black Mesa.

[Jay Flemma]

Garland, I have to agree with Matt on this...it's an easy walk...there are no hidden hazards...there's no blind shot on a par 3 (the 4th)...the first isn't blind, it's semi-blind...

but hey, if it's not your cup of tee, that's Kool and the Gang...

[Eric_Terhorst]

Jay,

I did the "Triple Challenge" in July and really enjoyed it--ignore the naysayers and go, you'll have a great time. 

In particular, ignore the nattering nabobs of negativism re:  Links of N. Dakota.  It's an excellent course, well worth the effort to get there. 

You can see my pics and others here: 
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12815.0.html