Who's played North dakota and what did you think?

[Jay Flemma]

Jay Kogan and I are heading up to Hawtree, Bully Pulpit and Linxof ND.  Anybody been there?  Any thoughts?  Also, anybody played out of black slag in bunkers before?  BY any chance has anyone been to Old Works?  I'm curious about a) the texture playing out of it and b) if greens ever develop any thing strange because they get slag all over them...you know like greens get built up by the sand over the years...does slag ever have any effect or is it somehow biodegradable...

[Jason Topp]

I assume by Old Works you mean the course in Montana.  I have played it and enjoyed my round very much.  The slag works well as bunker sand.  I did not notice much difference other than the look.  

I thought the course was better than average but nothing spactacular.  I would not make a special trip to see it, but if you are driving through there it would definitely be worth stopping to play or at least to look around.

[Garland Bayley]

I've played the Links of ND, Bully Pulpit, and Old Works. I like the two in ND, better than Old Works. Old Works is too unnatural with its smoothed out fairways. The black slag, which I have read is at Hawktree too, is a little denser than most if not all sand. Perhaps more akin to rain dampened sand. The greens have a definite black hue. It almost looks as if they top dress the greens with the slag.

My biggest complaint about the Links of ND is too many short par 3s. You will find there are a number of blind shots there, but as the saying goes, they are only blind the first time around.

Bully Pulpit is my favorite of the three. I like courses that finish with with their most interesting holes and the run from 13 to 18 is a very interesting set of holes with great variety. Ron Whitten suggested 15 as the best par 3 in the US.

[Evan Fleisher]

Jay,

I can chime in on Hawtree.  I thought it was an complex and interesting piece of property to build a golf course on (very extreme!), but Jim Engh did a fantastic job of fitting the holes into the natural landscape and setting.

The holes are routed such that you will get a taste of pretty much EVERY wind direction, as well as flattish hols, uphill holes, and downhill holes.  Very few trees in play (as you could imagine), but many native grasses and prairie areas used as both framing and carry off tees.  The green complexes were solid with plenty of contour and movement...lots of chipping areas and such.

The black slag in the bunkers was pretty easy to play out of (I thought), providing for very "crisp" shots as it is not at all powdery or clumpy.

One last thing...most people do ride, but of course I walked (surprise, surprise!) and did not think it was all that difficult...but I did get a "funny" look for the pro when I told him I'd be hoofing it...

[Garland Bayley]

As far as wind is concerned, Bully Pulpit is in the Little Missouri Valley which seems to protect it from the wind. Three holes, 14, 15, 16 climb up into the hills and are more exposed to the wind. 15 played directly into the wind, I correctly guessed Hurdzan would make long be the safest miss, so I overclubbed two clubs and had my ball end up a couple of yards over, which lead to a chip to within the leather, and a par.

The Links of ND has many holes running in different directions exposed to the wind. However, two of the short par 3s were in protected areas which allowed a high wedge to the green. They would have been more interesting if the wind were there to affect the shot.

[Brian Cenci]

I've played Hawktree, Links of North Dakota and Old Works.  Links of North Dakota was may favorite, fairly simple and probably the least amount of maintenance budget of them all.  Old Works was my least favorite.  Not very well contoured considering the rough terrain surrounding the site.  Hawktree is a typical Engh course, although very nice course.

-Brian

[Mark Leo]

Jay,
That sounds like a great trip.  I've not played ND, but here in Vegas, at Bear's Best, Holes #2 (a short par 4) and #7 (long downhill par 3) have been reproduced.  The quality of the repro's aside, the slag used for the bunkers is exactly the same.  To answer your question, the slag plays amazingly like a typical coarse grade sand, and I don't think you need to play anything differently.  I've not seen anything like slag buildup on the greens or even outside the bunkers for that matter.  Have a great trip.
Mark

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, this is fantastic stuff...thanks to all of you very much.  I put in a call to Jim engh and stephen Kay (links of ND)...maybe the god dr hurdzan is reading this I dunno, bhu8t they'll have some info too.

[Dan Moore]

Anybody familiar with Town and Country GC in Devil's Lake, North Dakota.  It's a 1920 William Langford nine later expanded to eighteen.  

http://www.golfdevilslake.com/Course/index.htm  

[Garland Bayley]

The post about Bear's Best reminded me of the par 3s at Old Works. I hit the same club on 3 of the 4, so the course lacks in variety there. Of course with 5 different tees one can always create variety on ones own.

[Craig Sweet]

Garland, this year you can drive a cart onto the faiways at Old Works...90 degree rule....otherwise, walking is easier.

I almost played there this weekend, but stayed in town and played the course where I work...however, I am planning a trip over to Deer Lodge and hopefully a tour of the Rock Creek Cattle Co, and then on to Anaconda and Old Works in the afternoon...if so I will take a camera....

[Garland Bayley]

Craig,

Are they falling off in rounds? Is that a concession to try to get more people on the course? Man, that takes half the fun out of it. Seeing the cartballers walk more than the walkers was half the fun of Old Works.  

[Craig Sweet]

I'm not sure why they have changed the policy....originally the carts on path only policy was due to the unique conditions required to cap the superfund site...

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Couple of quick points --

Most overrated "out of the way place" falls to Links of North Dakota. The trek to Ray, ND is truly a long one and the golf, while good for North Dakota, fails to be anywhere remotely in the league with such solid affordable public layouts like Wild Horse and Black Mesa, to name just two.

The best part of Links of ND is when you finally get to the long par-5 7th. Well done hole followed by a demanding par-3 -- particularly when the pin is cut far right.

The rest of the course picks up the pace with the back nine but it's not in the same "wild west" vein that would make for even more enjoyable layout.

I especially liked the par-3 17th because it's one of the few holes there where you need hit an above average shot to get somewhere near the hole. The long downhill par-5 is a good closer but Links of ND gets plenty of mileage because of isolation than its design totality. Put it in a major metro area and you'd be lucky to see the course get more than a footnote of attention.

Regarding Bully Pulpit -- the course misses the boat because until the very end of the round you simply see a routing that avoids -- rather than embraces -- the Badlands. Give Mike Hurdzan credit for a good layout but the first 12 holes are merely bit players until you get to the par-4 13th. After that hole you ascend the kind of terrain the course should have used rather than the flat meadow land much of the routing occupies.

IMHO, one of the best short par-3 public holes you can play anywhere is at Bully Pulpit. The 15th hole is simply a butt kicker that will not allow anything but the superlative to settle near the pin. Standing on the back tee and looking at the green as it hugs the falling cliffside and you just know your approach has to be Tiger like in its overall skill level.

The remaining three holes are well done but, all in all, Bully Pulpit, only provides a glimpse at what could and should have been much better. I have often said that land is the first among equals when assessing courses and Bully Pulpit confirms that because the first 12 holes are not in the same category as the finish indicates.

The last layout -- Old Works -- is a credit to Team Nicklaus in providing a very "affordable" Nicklaus layout -- generally an oxymoron. Old Works is quite wide open and from the tips tops 7,700 yards but with the elevation can play closer to 7,000. The lone issue I had on my last visit (I've played it twice over a five-year period) is that the fescue can be overwatered and play quite a bit slower than my first time there.

If the fescuse is dry and the balls runs out the very qualities of the layout definitely intensify. Is the layout an architectural marvel? Not really. But, given what Montana has had for golf courses the very existence of Old Works makes a clear statement that the bar for quality golf will only get higher and higher with each newer layout down the pike.

Jay -- frankly you need to head to western Colorado and Utah for some very interesting public options.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt Ward, I believe the last time you played it was after a month of near record rainfall...in fact, I played it shortly after you did and the Super appologized for the "wet" course....

His intentions are for firm and fast, but Mother Nature sometimes gets in the way....

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

My comments on Old Works were positive -- I can't ignore the realities of when I was there. Glad you could it in context but I did say my first visit was quite enjoyable because the fescue was what it should be when playing Old Works.

[Garland Bayley]

Concerning Old Works

...The lone issue I had on my last visit (I've played it twice over a five-year period) is that the fescue can be overwatered and play quite a bit slower than my first time there.

If the fescuse is dry and the balls runs out the very qualities of the layout definitely intensify. Is the layout an architectural marvel? ...

Matt,

In case you weren't paying attention, the Old Works was a superfund site. The toxin was capped with heavy clay. Any excess water falling from the sky will prevent the course from playing fast no matter what kind of grass is on the course.

As for the Links of ND. Move it to Portland and it will be an instant hit. We have two RTJs and a Chandler Egan for public courses. They don't compare. We have daily fee John Fought and Bob Cupp and they don't compare. I have not been to the daily fee at Pumpkin Ridge, but I was not overly impressed with the private course at Pumpkin Ridge during the Women's USOpen. From what I hear, the Links of ND would be a hit in the Seattle area too.

My best guess is that you put to much emphasis on immaculate conditioning to dis the Links of ND like that.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I am very aware of the genesis of Old Works and I did salute what it does offer. You need to re-read what people post.

I said Old Works played firm and fast the first time I played it and when it does the manner of the holes and routing works quite well. I also found out that in my second visit the amount of water on the course did not simply come from the skies.

Garland, allow me to clue you in -- I never referenced, suggested, or even remotely hinted that conditioning was the rationale for my reasons on Links of ND or Bully Pulpit. Try to follow what I actually did say.

I opined that the actual course(s) -- most notably the existing holes themselves and the land they occupy was quite disappointing because in both instances there are clear examples where the layouts do succeed. However, for Links of ND to merit top 100 status as it does via Golfweek / Modern is a big time stretch that owes itself more to an isolated location than anything else. Too many people have a bad case of Sand Hills-itis in thinking that remote courses are ipso facto some sort of unique and winning design formula. The one in Mullen is -- the others are simply isolated courses that gain from their location rather than the collective weight of their actual design IMHO.

Let me point out that mentioning the lack of courses in the Portland area doesn't automatically then mean Links of ND is some sort of national wonder. I would respectfully suggest you need to play additional quality public golf in order to lecture me on the status of Links of ND is when compared to the rising bar of quality public golf in any number of locations in the USA. If you bother to travel try the western area of Colorado and parts of Utah for quality public courses that get so little attention but would easily go beyond what Links of ND and Bully Pulpit are about. Ditto Hawktree and Old Works.

P.S. The Seattle area does have a number of worthy public courses -- and frankly a few of them would push Links of ND far in the background.

[Jay Flemma]

Well speaking of western colorado, here's some thoughts on Redlands Mesa and Lakota canyon.

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2005/12/redlands-mesa-gc-grand-junction.html

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2006/01/jim-engh-breaks-down-xs-and-os-of.html

I hear pretty good things about devils thumb.  Rick Phelps is very well received in Colorado, I saw fans of his embrace him one day when he was out playing...it was nice.  They did the same for Jim Engh when they recognized him at Fossil.

Personally, I'm chomping at the bit for Ballyneal when I return to Col...that and another day at Pradera.  What a place.  Run don't walk.  You MUST see Pradera.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

I have played Pradera and agree completely on the unique offerings it provides. Credit to Jim Engh for a well done effort. Alas, Engh isn't as well known, or should I say, as well appreciated as a number of other select architects are on this site.

Pradera is simply a fun time playing a layout that gives you any number of holes you can't wait to play again and again.

The only downside is that Engh needs to move away from the desire to repeat time after time the idea that greensites need to have some sort of containment mounding to propel balls back into the surfaces.

The best thing that can happen to Pradera is if the new Doak and C&C layouts actually drive more interest to come to the state. Then Pradera may get even more national attention than it does now.

[Jay Flemma]

I kinda like Jim's player friendly bounces, but I understand its a matter of taste and variety there.  It sone of his TMs.

While I wish for nothing but success for Ballyneal and Nebraska, I also hope Pradera's well deserved fame grows independantly of outside forces.

Viva la Pradera and Ballyneal!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

I am very aware of the genesis of Old Works and I did salute what it does offer. You need to re-read what people post.

Perhaps you should re-read what you post! You made no mention of the unique situation at the Old Works, but you mentioned the grass type twice there and again later.

...
Garland, allow me to clue you in -- I never referenced, suggested, or even remotely hinted that conditioning was the rationale for my reasons on Links of ND or Bully Pulpit. Try to follow what I actually did say.

I never suggested you "referenced, suggested, or even remotely hinted" anything. I made a guess! Honestly, it doesn't seem that you are very facile with the English language.

You wrote, "Put it in a major metro area and you'd be lucky to see the course get more than a footnote of attention." I responded to that outlandish remark by demonstrating how I felt it not to be true of at least one major metro area. Perhaps rereading a few times would help you understand context and what relates to what.

P.S. The Seattle area does have a number of worthy public courses -- and frankly a few of them would push Links of ND far in the background.

There you go with more outlandish statements. Perhaps you don't agree with Golf Digest ratings, but I have played Classic Golf Club in WA when it was ranked 6th public in the state by GD. It does not hold up in comparison to the Links of ND, so I have to wonder how the Links would get pushed "far in the backgroud". Is 6th ranking far in the background?

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I mentioned the grass type because fescue should be prpared to play a certain way. The first visit was fantastic and I said so -- something you conveniently failed to mention. The second visit was far below that and I mentioned it accordingly. Excuses, whether fair or not, is not something I casually dismiss.

Garland, you are the guy who threw into the mix the idea of course conditions and labeled me as being more interested in that element. You are badly mistaken. I only view course conditions as ad adjunct to the main items -- the overall site, routing and totality of the shot values.

Couple of other points -- Golfweek has the Links of ND in its top 100 Modern -- I can name quite a few other public courses that are relatively isolated and as cheap that don't even get a mention. Try places like Devil's Thumb and Antler Creek, both in Colorado and also The Hideout in Monticello, UT, to name just three.

I don't know what travels you take but from the ones I have played Links of ND gets mileage because being in Ray, ND it is then linked in the same vein as Wild Horse which is quite silly.

One other thing -- the greater Portland area does have a few public courses of note that likely get little attention.

Let's talk about Links of ND -- can you tell me what is so special about the first six holes ? Minus the sheer beauty of the scenery and the isolation what is the big deal with the holes for the first third of the layout?

Links of ND really gets going at the 7th hole.

On the whole -- the totality of the green sites are fairly tame and often pedestrian. A player is not penalized if approaches are indifferent because the green slopes / contours are fairly ordinary for the most part. Compared to Wild Horse, Links of ND is fairly benign and toothless in this area.

With all due respect, you must be confusing the isolation of the course with its perceived pedigree of quality. Frankly, Hawktree is Bismarck is a far better overall layout.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt, all I can tell you is the current Super at The Old Works has been there a couple of years and he made it a point, right up front, to say the course would play firm and fast on his watch. He even went so far as to post on the web site that golfers should expect some yellow and brown grass...he said Mr. Nicklaus ment for the course to play firm and fast and that is how he would maintain it...

The last time I played it was not firm and fast...nearly 20 days straight with some precipitation made for a much slower track...

When I talked with the Super he appologized and said, "well, it was firm and fast up until the end of August"....

[Tony_Chapman]

I've played Hawktree and it is a fun little ride. If you are going down to SD, you should stop in Rapid City and play Ron Farris' Red Rock -- I hear it's great stuff.