What are WE missing?

[Jim Franklin]

I spoke to a good friend of mine over the weekend and good golfer (1 handicap) and he told me he liked The Bridge way better than Friars Head. I played Friars Head with him and we both agreed it was terrific. He just played The Bridge and says it was even better. I have not played The Bridge, but it was one of the two courses Rees Jones told me were underrated of his. I don't know, but are we missing something? I thought Friars Head was a Doak 10.

[Matt MacIver]

I think on another thread Mr. Doak inferred a 9 for Friar's Head...

[Geoffrey Childs]

Jim

I think sometimes WE miss A LOT due to the stereotypes that are propagated on this board.

I happen to agree with your Doak 10 on Friars Head.  It gets better and evolves every time I'm there and i hope to see more next week. I posted that 10 rating last week I think and I got a PM from someone telling me how I was wrong and basically my eyes must not be looking at the same course he does. He happens to have an anti-C&C tendency for some reason.

By the same token I think we might be preconceived to downgrade courses like Trump Bedminster when it is a super good course. That same fellow who does not praise Friar's Head as most here do gives Trump a 9 while trying to get invited to Donald's next wedding.

We have different ideas on good architecture and we should listen to reasoned reviews.  I have not played the Bridge because some have said not to waste my time.  I think I will make an attempt to play it this year.

[ForkaB]

Jim

Why didn't you play The Bridge?  Why don't you, next time you are out there in the potato fields?  Why do most of us avoid the tracks that others of us tell us are not OK?

Rich

[TEPaul]

Jim:

We're not missing anything. Some people have different tastes in golf course architecture---that's all.

I call it the "Big World" theory----eg there is and probably should be all kinds of stuff out there because people have very different tastes.

"Golf and golf architecture is a great big world and there really is room in it for everyone."



Part of the problem with some on this website is they actually think no one should like golf course architecture like The Bridge. If a rational mind thinks about that mind-set for a half second it's not hard to tell it's a preposterous notion.

Again, It's a Big World and there should be something for everyone.  

[Garland Bayley]

I have to note that golf's most beloved figure has made a effort to review Friar's Head,  but hasn't even put The Bridge on his to do list.

[ForkaB]

I have to note that golf's most beloved figure has made a effort to review Friar's Head,  but hasn't even put The Bridge on his to do list.

Garland

That is Ran's flaw, not The Bridge's...........

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jim,

What does your buddy think of Atlantic if he has played it ?

[Alex_Wyatt]

Somebody must think that Godfather III is the best of the Godfather series, but that doesn't mean that any reasonably insightful person would think so. Some people drink white zinfandel.  Some people prefer light beer. Thank god for reviewers to straighten those poor souls out.

[redanman]

To some people's tastes The Bridge is a 10, but not mine.  It is a big beautiful longish course "all there in front of you".  If that's your definition of 10, so be it.

Early on I think that we beat to death The Bridge and Matt Ward gave it a Matt Ward 10.

If we use "Doak's criteria" who better to determine them than TD?

There is nothing really wrong with The Bridge, but it does not fit all of the criteria of Doak's 10, the most notable being that it has a lot of "doesn't add anything new or differnt to the world of golf" (Doak 6 or 7?) and there are a lot of holes that you can skip out there without missing anything.

I think most here would call the course a "missed opportunity", for my tastes I think it was.

Objectively applying the criteria the Bridge gets about a 6 Doak.

I also agree with Doak that the Friar's Head gets a nine not a 10, and it is more that I am more not "pro-C&C" than I am "anti-C&C"; there's a big difference.  I merely stated that the criteria dictated a 9 not a 10 on the Doak scale listing said criteria. Inquiring minds don't need to wonder.

[A_Clay_Man]

Geoffrey Childs, Could you elaborate on your statement about stereotypes and this board?

Didn't you then illustrate the diversity?

[TEPaul]

"I have to note that golf's most beloved figure has made a effort to review Friar's Head,  but hasn't even put The Bridge on his to do list.  

Garland:

That doesn't mean much. Do you know our leader Ran Morrissett? Well, if you do you don't know him like I know him.

All you have to do is look at Ran Morrissett to tell what he is and what he's about. All one has to do is look at the way he's dressed to tell what he is.

Ran is a talent when it comes to viewing, appreciating analyzing and reviewing golf course architecture but the man lives in another world from most people and most golfers.

He's a sophisticate, an intellectual, an elitist, a rarefied air type of guy. He doesn't really understand the humdrum way most people look at golf course architecture and golf.

Ran's not haughty or anything, it's just that he lives in a very different world. He's almost like someone who grew up in the Forbidden City and tries to step out of its walls into the hot reality of China for the first time.

I saw Rees come up to Ran once, stick out his hand and say:

"Hi Ran, I'm Rees Jones."

Ran didn't seem to notice Rees's outstretched hand---he just observed him very calmly and deliberately for a while and finally said;

"Yes, exactly, of course you are."

[Alex_Wyatt]

Like James Bond to Pussy Galore.

Oh goodie! Another Bridge thread!!!!!

[Geoffrey Childs]

I also agree with Doak that the Friar's Head gets a nine not a 10, and it is more that I am more not "pro-C&C" than I am "anti-C&C"; there's a big difference.  I merely stated that the criteria dictated a 9 not a 10 on the Doak scale listing said criteria. Inquiring minds don't need to wonder.

The criteria dictates a 10 to my misinformed eye.  Who is right?

[George Pazin]

Come on, no one really likes the third Godfather best, do they? That might be the most outrageous thing ever posted on here.

As for Friars Head,  I haven't had the pleasure, but I can say, with even my limited exposure to the vast multitude of golfers that, say, a Matt Ward has, that not only are there a lot of people who don't appreciate what many on here do, there are many who in fact go a step further and dislike what many on here like.

For every poster on here who likes quirk, likes being asked to hit interesting approach or recovery shots, likes to be challenged with a big breaking putt, cherishes the challenge of a firm and fast course, even if it's a dogtrack, there are MANY MANY golfers who want lush and soft conditions, never want anything other than a level lie, never want to see a bunker they might have to play sideways or backwards out of, never want an even slightly blind shot, etc.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey Childs, Could you elaborate on your statement about stereotypes and this board?

Didn't you then illustrate the diversity?

Stereotype

Rees Jones  - Bad, no strategy
Tom Fazio - eye candy, no strategy
Tom Doak - G-d, everything he touches turns to gold

need I go on?  To dismiss the work of Rees or Faz off hand or think that all Doak does is great has been propagated here for years.  It's just not true.

[TEPaul]

Quote from: BillV aka redanmanŽ on Today at 11:03:40am
"I also agree with Doak that the Friar's Head gets a nine not a 10, and it is more that I am more not "pro-C&C" than I am "anti-C&C"; there's a big difference.  I merely stated that the criteria dictated a 9 not a 10 on the Doak scale listing said criteria.  Inquiring minds don't need to wonder."

This type of remark is everything that's wrong with Golfclubatlas.com and with rating golf courses. It is the most hollow and meaningless example of someone trying to act "informed" about golf architecture that one can possibly find. It presupposes a couple of things as "givens' when in and of themselves they mean absolutely nothing other than a series of words strung together that lead nowhere.



 
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Stereotype

Rees Jones  - Bad, no strategy
Tom Fazio - eye candy, no strategy
Tom Doak - G-d, everything he touches turns to gold

need I go on?  To dismiss the work of Rees or Faz off hand or think that all Doak does is great has been propagated here for years.  It's just not true.

Geoffrey,

I'd add;

C&C - GODS, and unimpeachable under any circumstances.

Can we name any GCA criticisms of any of their courses, or even any of their holes?

No, they're all perfect.  

Doak's work is critically analyzed with a fine-tooth comb compared to the amount of intelligent debate around C&C's courses, I think you'd agree.

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way, I absolutely love most of the work from C&C that I've played, but my efforts to add a little critical analysis to some of those courses were absolutely lambasted by some on here, going so far as to claim my minor critiques were a huge insult to the sponsoring member.

That kinda thing stifles any reasonable or honestly frank debate, not to mention intellectually valid assessments.

It's why we're sometimes left throwing numbers around...

...or just not participating a whole bunch.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom Paul and others,

When I put   by my post, I do not intend for it to be taken seriously. I was just offering an interesting tidbit which I fully understood could not be taken as something that valid conclusions could be drawn from. I do not know Ran, but I have the utmost respect for what he as done here.

Since I know neither Friar's Head nor The Bridge, I will let the battle of the words rage on between those of you more in the know that I.

[TEPaul]

"Can we name any GCA criticisms of any of their courses, or even any of their holes?"

Definitely. I've seen a couple of their holes that suck sour kumquats. And that's coming from me----the guy on here generally accused of being their biggest fan. The 18th at Easthampton sucks sour rotten kumquats. Matter of fact if I want to be assured of picking a hole on a C&C golf course that Bill likes the best all I have to do is pick the one I either like least or understand least. But as they say---that's probably the sign of the genius in Bill.  

These guys are way beyond normal anyway. One time I was playing Hidden Creek with "The Duke" and after a while we sort of stopped playing and just began to walk and talk. I broached the subject of strategy and James turned to me and said: "Bill has gone beyond strategy."

NUNUNunununu

[Dan Kelly]

For every poster on here who likes quirk, likes being asked to hit interesting approach or recovery shots, likes to be challenged with a big breaking putt, cherishes the challenge of a firm and fast course, even if it's a dogtrack, there are MANY MANY golfers who want lush and soft conditions, never want anything other than a level lie, never want to see a bunker they might have to play sideways or backwards out of, never want an even slightly blind shot, etc.

George --

You may be right, and I'm afraid you are -- but I'd say:

No matter how great big a world golf and its architecture are, those people don't deserve the title "golfer."

They may play golf -- but they're not golfers.

Dan

[TEPaul]

Garland:

What makes you think I took seriously what you said?  

[Steve Lapper]

Okay...lay down all ye swords!

  Getting back to the opening ?? of Mssr. Franklin, the real answer lies not with caliber of the player, the ineluctable allegiance of the architecture fan, nor the common persifilage of those who've not played any of the questioned venues. It lies rooted in only one place: PERSONAL TASTE!!!

  Why must everyone concede to the ranking and rating crap that poisons these threads daily? I know my taste runs clearly away from certain archies (Rees/Faz)and favorable to another (C&C/Doak) but I've come to respect several creations of the former. Places like Atlantic, Hudson National, Galloway are marvelous designs well suited for their respective terrains.

 The Bridge, however, just wasn't my cup of tea. It doesn't seem to take the best advantage of such a magnificent property and neither does it escape a repetitive "corridor" style routing (that is NOT seen anywhere else east of Bethpage).

   Taking this all out of the context of our personal tastes and our defined and objective observations just doesn't produce much in the way of constructive debate.....or am I just plain wrong and we need ratings, rankings,etc...?

[Jim Franklin]

Rich -

I did not play The Bridge because of its reviews here frompeople I respect and for the plain fact that there were sooo many other courses out east that I had not previously played. NGLA for one and I played it finally a couple of years ago. I will be making an effort to see The Bridge this summer, but my golf trips are somewhat reduced due to a third child, but we'll see.

Mike -

My friend has not played Atlantic. He plays every weekend at The Rock (whatever that is). When I see him, I try to get him to see some other places. We have played Bethpage about a dozen times and a few other courses. His practice is finally letting him golf some this summer so I hoping to get him out to Shinny and National.