Tilly's Examination of Philadelphia CC

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

There was nothing negative because there was no correspondence to speak of.  The only thing we have are the drawings by Ross and Flynn and some indication that because of CC York's rivalry with Lancaster CC (in addition to the obvious differences in the plans) they decided not to go with Flynn and selected Ross.

I've been to a great many sources of materials relating to golf in Philadelphia and I've never seen or heard anything that indicates animosity of any kind between the Philadelphia architects.  When asked, Connie Lagerman did say that Flynn had very little regard for McGovern's talent and he didn't like him.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
What about Flynn and Dick Wilson    You probably forgot about that one.  They were not best buddies that's for sure!  Essentially all the architects at that time had huge egos so you have to believe that there was some underlying tension amongst them especially as things got tougher.

By the way, you will find this very interesting about the caddie I had at The Country Club of Fairfield last week.  His uncle (I presume great uncle) is Red Lawrence!  We had a fantastic discussion.  He went to school in Scotland and has played golf all over.  He is very interested in Lawrence's work.  He just contacted me to help him get out at Wade Hampton (this week).  For a caddie he sure gets around.  

[wsmorrison]

I didn't forget the story where Flynn came back to Shinnecock and found that Wilson did not build exactly according to his plans.  Flynn really yelled at him and made him take out what he did on his own and do exactly as Flynn indicated.  Does that mean Flynn didn't get along with him?  I don't know if Flynn and Wilson were ever buddies.  Wilson was his employee, and never a construction foreman--he worked under Lawrence or Gordon.  On occasion he and Flynn got into arguments--no doubt Wilson's drinking caused some problems.  I don't think you can say any of this is evidence of underlying tension.  

[Mark_Fine]

I could be mistaken but I thought I remember Connie saying that the two of them did not get along?  It might have been a relationship of mutual toleration.  

Did you see my note about that caddie.  Pretty interesting.  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

In one of our early interviews with Connie L she mentioned that Dick Wilson did annoy Toomey and Flynn sometime by diverging from their architectural plans on his own. I forget what questions we asked her in that vein but it was probably about Shinnecock or that may've been the example she cited. So did David Gordon, William Gordon's son. David Gordon said his father was the Toomey and Flynn foreman on Shinnecock and that Dick Wilson took things into his own hands sometimes to their exasperation. What Wilson did according to Gordon had to be undone and redone according to plan.

I do not recall Connie saying that Toomey and Flynn did not like Dick Wilson only that he sometimes annoyed them in liberties he took with their plans. She did mention Wilson's drinking, I believe. It sounded to me like they respected his talent if he stuck to plan or I suppose he wouldn't have worked for them as long as he did.

He took credit with Shinnecock for the design of the course but that was a number of years after Flynn's death.

I thought Connie's story about Dick Wilson and his relationship with Toomey and Flynn was very credible as it involved some actions Wilson took and Connie also happened to volunteer that Dick Wilson's brother also worked for Toomey and Flynn and unlike Dick Wilson his brother was very easy to work with and she said they never had any problems with him.

I'm writing this because we never said Toomey or Flynn didn't like Dick Wilson, and as far as I know only you have.  

In a later interview we did happen to ask Connie if there was anyone in the business Flynn did not like and she only mentioned J.B. McGovern. When we asked her if she knew why she said she did not, and that she could only recall her father said a few times he just didn't think he was a very good architect. She did not know precisely why though.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Don't get me wrong, the statement about Flynn and Wilson not always getting along is mine (I'm not suggesting you said it).  I've met with Connie on numerous occasions to talk with her about her father, etc.  I guess my intrepretation of her comments was a little different than yours.  I suspect they had ego trouble between them.  It was Flynn's way or NO way and Wilson obviously didn't always agree as evidenced in your Shinnecock example.  

I don't know if you are aware, but working with Tom Ferrell, we put together a pretty neat documentary on Golf Course Architecture (a pilot video was developed).  I showed it to Wayne and Mayday.  Connie did a nice interview for us and part of her question and answer session is included.  We gave her a copy of it.  Next time you see her, ask her to show you it.  I thought she did great and she seemed proud of herself when she saw the finished product.  Tom is close to getting it underwritten (finally) and we hope it will become a two or three part series soon.

[Tony_Muldoon]

And Alison writes that Americans shouldn't be let near a sand dune  

Paul I'm reading these letters and I wondered who the American was that Prince's were talking to just after the war.   Do you know?   RTJ?

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Wayne,
I think your assumption regarding Tilly's designed 1st hole at PCC being the practice hole that runs parallel to the 14th could be dead on. I remember you telling me that he designed a couple months ago and since then I've wondered why it was there. I see it everyday and now it makes perfect sense. Did the club keep it there back then to be a practice hole and grass source for sod and hole cuts as it is now?

My second question is about the routing. You said 14 was the 1st. I know today's 3rd was the 18th thanks to the Sam Snead story. How does this make sense?

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

Here's how the routing relates pre and post-new clubhouse

Hole 1 today = original hole 14
2=15
3=16
4=17
5=18 (sort of, Gordon's green is well short of the old green, now the practice green)
6=10
7=11
8=12
9=13
10=4
11=5
12=6
13=7
14=8
15=9
16=1
17=2
18=3

[Mike_Trenham]

The PCC history from the 1970s (approx) says that H.S. Colt reviewed the plans prior to construction.  And I believe it simply said that he gave them total approval or something along those lines, don't have that book near me right now.

Does this jive with the limited time he spent in the US?