MacDonald/Raynor

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I think almost every item I mentioned is an improvement.

I think there's more analogous features in the 5th at Old Marsh.  I think that hole more closely resembles the 17th at Prestwick.

# 3 at NGLA is the original "Alps" on steroids.

Nonetheless, I think it's a far, far better hole.

[wsmorrison]

Fair enough, Pat.  Thank you.  Again, I wasn't questioning your statement, just looking for an explanation.  See you sometime soon.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
Last summer I had a parent come play who is a member at FI.
He came in after the round and proceeded to tell me how he enjoyed the course and picked out a couple of holes in particular. One of them was our third, an Alps, which is quite different than the one at FI.  
When I mentioned to him who built the course he had just played he was surprised, and said that was probably the reason he felt very comfortable out there.  
Trust me, Hotchkiss is a far cry from FI, but he played the next day, knew all the hole types, and enjoyed the course just as much.

[ed_getka]

Tom D,
   With regards to figuring out what makes a Redan tick, did you decipher that before you built High Point? How well do you think your version came out? It was my first exposure to a Redan, and now that I have played at North Berwick, I am curious as to what your take is. What Redan replicas have improved on the original in your opinion? And what are the major determinants that go into an ideal Redan?
   
Kelly,
   Great thread, I particularly liked the #12 green at Fishers which isn't one of the noted replica holes.

[Bob_Huntley]

Ed,

I am playing Fishers in June. Fill me in.

Best wishes.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"This is one reason I'm down on the Biarritz.  Nearly all of those are exactly the same because they are symmetrical, so there's nothing more to learn.  Not to mention, I've only ever played one of them where you could chase the tee shot through the swale to the hole."

TomD:

You say you've only played one Biarritz where you could chase the tee shot through the swale to the hole.

Why is that?

Obviously it's because there is no real attempt to maintain the hole (the course) the way it should be maintained to make a hole and a design like that work they way it's supposed to work.

Some of those old "prototype" or "copy" holes are from an era where various designs very much factored in the function and effectiveness of the ground game or running game and the Biarritz happens to be one of them as does the redan.

Without firm and fast conditions both "through the green" and on the green these two particular hole designs simply don't function the way they're supposed to function and designed to function.

These two holes could be the best examples around today of the importance----no, I should say the necessity, that MAINTENCANCE PRACTICES be designed to "MELD" into particular types of architecture (design intent) to make the options of various architecture play the way they're supposed to play.

The "Biarritz shot" was one that required a low shot to land short of the swale and with the correct "weight" to run into it and up the other side with just enough steam to run on to the pin. It was one of the most demanding and exciting shots required I can remember as was the redan shot of landing the ball short and right of the green with the correct trajectory and "weight" to have it just filter left and down to the hole.

There's nothing at all wrong with a good redan or biarritz that a little of the correct maintenance practices can't fix.

Perhaps you and many others today will say that's not true or it doesn't make that much sense (most on here seem to say that automatically). Well, it does make sense and it completely underscores why maintenance practices can be every bit as important to strategies and playabilities as is golf course architecture itself.

It's about time more architects begin to understand the importance or the necessity of this----the importance of particular maintenance practices and begin informing golf clubs what they are in specific detail.

 

[TEPaul]

I guess I have another bone to pick regarding the Biarritz hole and it's potential interesting playabilities vs the way some think it must be played. This thought may be somewhat the other side of the coin from what I said above.

The other day while together at The Creek whose Biarritz has relatively recently had green space added before the swale, George Bahto informed me that Macdonald in no circumstances intended the pin to be placed before the swale (by the way, some Biarritz's had original green space before the swale although most didn't).

GeorgeB said he can prove that due to the fact that on the cards of all Biarritzes the yardage seemed to be to the middle of the green space beyond the swale.

Well, maybe that's true and maybe Macdonald did not intend that a pin should by placed on the front green section. However, with no disrespect to either GeorgeB or to C.B. Macdonald, I say so what, or really cares if Macdonald said that-----although I've definitely never seen anything anywhere where he did say that?

Placing a pin on the front section (particularly near the swale) can be an excellent and varied option on a Biarritz (The Creek's Biarritz green space, as is Fox Chapel's, is app 85  YARDS from front to back!!!).

I say if it works well use it for Christ's sakes.

I take Macdonald's thoughts on architecture, particularly his own architecture, seriously but I just don't believe that anyone is aware that C.B. actually intended to set pin rotations for us today, and where they shouldn't be----particularly if they work well. The man may've been incredibly stubborn about some things but I doubt he was so stubborn as to suggest that something not be used if it was obvious it worked just fine in play.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Kelly,

Intersting thread. Years ago before GCA.com, I played National with Dr Gene for the first time. I knew it had replicas from Scotland but other than the name "Road" on the scorecard at National I did not have any real knowledge. I knew CB Mac but never heard of Raynor nor recognized that he was the architect at Southampton a course that I had played many times.

I loved National from day 1, and obviously since that time the insanity has risen.   Yesterday I got paired with a Teaching Pro and a very very good amateur who beat the pro with a birdie on 18 in their match. Playing with good players got me going, and I hit the ball phenominally well and never once thought about strategy, replica holes or architecture! Somtimes I curse Dr Gene for pointing me to this site before my first trip to Sand Hills!

Tom Doak,

I disagree with your premise that the Biarittz should have the ability to be played as a running shot from the tee. Two polar opposites are Fishers (uphill) and Yale (downhill). The back pin at Fishers would call for an aerial shot all the time (Donnie Beck, true?). That is a mother of a shot especially in the wind. Fishers is not the hardest course in the world, but I would not want that hole to be removed by Raynor due to some sort of rule about how a hole should be played.

I like the variety of how the replicas play.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I think one important aspect of these holes, and certainly in general on any course is the superintendent's committment to maintaining the architecture.  Where I was you could see the superintendent's committment to MacD/Raynor's design features.  I am certain he is ably served by an architect and some members, but he really strives to conduct his maintenance practices in a way that at least preserves the proper design lines, how it plays I am uncertain as I only walked the course.

Mike, I agree when you play really well, I think the thought of replicas, and this or that feature in relation to historical facts becomes less important, however I think as a player you are attuned to any design features that you know are present based upon your studies that can help you on that hole.

Pat and others,

I am not questioning the validity of the replicas, it seems that kind of comes through in your posts, however, and no one has commented on this, perhaps no one knows much about this issue, I did find that Hunter made some pointed comments about architects imposing replicas on the landscape, and again it seems he was trying to make an issue out of it, otherwise there was no reason for him to spend time in his book on that matter, and I would assume he had some first hand knowledge of the courses at the time that may have had the replicas, I am curious if anyone knows why Hunter did such in his book.  What was the relationship between Hunter and Mac and Raynor.  At times Hunter seemed somewhat dismissive of MacKenzie as well, it wasn't overt, but you could read between the lines.  

[paul cowley]

A little off topic but I think of interest,

When we renovated Forest Oaks for the GGO [or whatever they call it now] we included a biarittz green complex on hole #2.....formal in shape with three pinable tiers and a 4' swale.

...its different in that the hole is a 535yd slightly downhill par five......we wanted to match the shot values of the older biarittz greens with the modern game as the hole is routinely reached in two with long irons or woods.... and I think it has succeeded quite well because when I say reached, it is usually by running it to the pin, and even for the front pins it is best to land short and run on [unless it is your third shot].

The Tour players enjoy playing it and we have received very positive feedback.....and its great fun to watch and see how they decide to approach the green.

....unfortunately it gets little notice on TV as it is the second hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul:  You'd better believe I understand the importance of the maintenance meld.  Watching some of your best work brutalized by poor maintenance tends to make an impression like no other.

In my opinion, on most of the Biarritzes I've seen, the swale is a bit wide for the ball to chase through it ... the approach would have to be EXTREMELY firm and fast for that hole to work as intended, and at the same extreme, some of the other Macdonald/Raynor holes wouldn't work so well at all.

Also, if you read Macdonald's description of the Biarritz hole in his book, it's clear that his concept was not to have a formal symmetrical hole [he talks about lower ground on the left, instead of a bunker].  Raynor is the one who took the formal concept and ran with it, because National didn't have a Biarritz hole for him to learn from.  Probably the only ones which CBM had a lot to do with are the ones at Yale and The Creek, and they are both unique interpretations of the idea.

[Tom_Doak]

Kelly:

I don't know the details of Robert Hunter's personal relationship with Macdonald or Raynor, but he was based in the northeast during that period and I'm sure he had many opportunities to play some of their early courses.  After his extensive visit to Scotland and England I'm sure he looked upon their work in a different light.


Ed:

The Redan at High Pointe is not my best work, because we didn't get the area in front of the green as receptive as it should be.  The 17th at Pacific Dunes is the only Redan I've built that I am really happy with; and now that I've done it right I am less interested in doing it again!

[ed_getka]

Paul,
   That sounds like an interesting green. Are there two tiers after the swale? What aspects of the green did the pro's like? What is the toughest pin position? Did you orient the green or slopes in such a way that a particular shot was called for?

I am enjoying this thread very much.

[George_Bahto]

Tom, just to add some thoughts on CB"s early influence(s) on Biarritz:

Because SR was not ready to go it alone yet, the Macdonald influence would have been dominant (probably with no input from Raynor) on the early courses, in the chronological order they were built:

1. Obviously none at NGLA because (I think) he didn't have representative topography

2. next in order was Piping Rock

3. then an excellent Revered Redan at Sleepy Hollow (the ground shot really works)

4. St Louis was next - still Macdonald
 
5. They then did Old White at Greenbrier but being more of a "hotel/resort" course I'm sure is was softened

6. the 1916 through 1931 Shinnecock course (#6)

7. the next involvement by CB probably was on the Lido project - #8 along the beach (from this project SR went out on his own)

Macdonald certainly did Creek (#8); also probably at his good friend Willie Vanderbilt's, Deepdale; probably influence at the Links course (#2) and certainly Mid-Ocean

I think because of the very bold designs of some of the holes on the Gibson Island course as well as the bold designs of the proposed second course at Gibson Island, I think Macdonald had a lot of influence on that project. Documentation shows they requested his presence.

Concerning Yale, I wouldn't at all be surprised Macdonald had his hand in selecting the sight for Biarritz as #9 (he may have finally found a representative topography for the first time - just speculating on that).

If you look at the Yale drawing in Scotland's Gift, you will see the Redan was originally drawn as the 9th hole - later Redan and Biarritz flip-flopped locations. This may have been changed after the Yale sight was cleared more and the obvious was seen.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Chronology is one thing, but geography another.  Was CB really in St. Louis much?  Or West (by God) Virginia?

[George_Bahto]

I don't mean he was there - because I don't think was there a lot. I'm talking about the design, routing and hole placements.

I think it was way too early for Raynor to do the latter.

[George_Bahto]

Most all the courses I mentioned would be credited (mostly) to Macdonald - Yale more Raynor.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Are you referring to the HP Redan not accepting a high fade? When I played there I couldn't really move the ball right to left (unfortunately now I can't stop moving it right to left ) and my low trajectory flight wouldn't really take the slope on the right and I would run through the green. It was certainly a challenging recovery from back there with the bunkering and fall off.
   I'm curious why you wouldn't want to do any more Redans after PD? Also, how do you feel the reverse Redan at Lost Dunes turned out?

[TEPaul]

TomD and GeorgeB;

Since none of us are old enough to remember Macdonald, none of us really know how he would've recommended a Biarritz be played.

But I am old enough to remember how I was taught to play a biarritz and that lesson goes all the way back close to the late 1940s.

I guess my dad belonged to about three Macdonald/Raynor courses when I was a kid but the one I learned how to play golf on was Piping Rock.

Back then probably in the end of the 1940s and the beginning of the 1950s Piping Rock had a wonderful old Scottish pro named Spence. He generally taught the kids. He was pretty small, very stylish and he taught the golf swing sort of the old fashioned way which very much included "shot-making".

One of my first lessons was when he marched a bunch of us kids out to the Biarritz and showed us how to play "the Biarritz shot".

We all had 4 woods and so did he. He told us we had to land the ball pretty far back on the front section of the biarritz and get it running into the swale where is was supposed to disappear for about a second and then pop up again running up the other side of the swale onto the green.

We all spent maybe a half hour out there on the biarritz and he just kept telling us; "hit it lower, hit it lower, that's the biarritz shot".

And he'd demonstrate it to us if we weren't doing it right. His shots never go more than about 10-15 feet above the ground. It was beautiful to watch how he did it so well and every now and then we'd get it too. It was really exciting to get it right and it was pretty beautiful to watch how well he could get it running across the front section, then disppear into the swale and out again and filter onto the back section.

He told us when we got older and bigger and could hit it better he'd take us over to the redan and show us how to play "the redan shot".

I don't know what Macdonald would've said but I have every reason to believe that old Scot, Spence, knew what he was talking about.

I don't remember precisely how firm the ground or green was but the shot I described worked just perfectly if you hit it right and low enough.

If supers today can't get their approaches or greens firm enough to allow that classic "biarritz shot" they better learn how to because that's the way that hole was designed to be played.

Obviously strong players today can hit it much further and can fly the ball back to the back section but that's not exactly the way that hole was designed to be played according to Spence who may've played golf in Scotland in the end of the 19th century.

The swale at Piping Rock is very wide and it doesn't matter---it works just fine if you hit the ball the way Spence explained.

You should've seen how my Dad and his friends, almost all of whom were scratch players, tried to play the reverse redan at The Links. That hole really fascinated them, and sometimes drove them crazy.

The perfect "reverse redan" shot was really something to see. Even in those days it wasn't easy to hit a really low controlled fade with a four wood, but that was "the reverse redan" shot and they all knew it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

The Knoll and Westhampton could be added to the group.

I have to run, but will return, on topic, later.

TEPaul has hit the critical element of playing a Biarritz, other then one from a highly elevated tee, and that's maintainance, the ability to run the ball should the hole be in the swale or back tier.

TEPaul,

Your response relating to measurements brings up more questions then it answers, one of which is, did CBM and others intend for the front tire to be mowed as green ?

[George_Bahto]

Tom Paul: Spencer certainly had it right.

Many referred to the shot as a "push-shot" also.

I'm sure I've posted this or at least referred to this article before:

     The American Golfer magazine had this to say about the Piping Rock 9th in just after the course was completed in 1912:

 "There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one to the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's-back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push-shot, a low ball with plenty of run which will land short of the dip and run through it onto the green. But the push shot must be very straight, otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog's-back and break off into a bunker.  This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock."

...... continued from The Evangelist of Golf:

"The Biarritz was at that time quite controversial, referred to by detractors as "Macdonald's Folly."

     Most Biarritz feature the swale in a closely mowed runup area, though some, most notably Yale's 9th hole, are entirely putting surface.  In recent years, many Biarritz putting surfaces have been expanded to include the entire landing area."


William K. Vanderbilt’s Deepdale:

In an article describing the course at the time when it was built:

.......  “Perfect natural inclines were found for Raynor to build a “Redan” hole. A very nice “Cape” hole was named, “Lake,” the course’s penultimate #17, was designed around a risky, angled, heroic carry over the corner of Lake Success. The favorite among the golfers, though, was “Biarritz,” hole #7 at 220 plus yards.  The “Biarritz” was described as requiring "a good poke with a spoon which will cover the distance and also avoid the traps (bunkers!) - to the right and left is a disiderastum.”



also going back to the Macdonald personal involvement subject - from my original Deepdale course text:

“William Vanderbilt had a marvelous property overlooking Lake Success in Great Neck on Long Island and "at the behest of William Kissam Vanderbilt, the Deepdale course was designed”  . . .   "under the direction” of Charley Macdonald (despite C. B.’s age - 68 at the time) “using portions of the lake as water hazard.” The actual construction of the course was overseen by Seth Raynor and his new partner, Charles Banks. Macdonald had long since ceased to be involved with course design but because of their close relationship he agreed to be involved with this venture - one wonders to what extent”

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul:

Your "push shot" is what the one of the professionals at Bandon Dunes, Grant Rogers, calls his "bunt driver".  He just takes a long slow swing with the driver into the wind, hits a bit of a push without much spin and lets the ball run out; he uses it on any of the par-3's into the wind, even down to a 150-yard hole.

Shotmaking is a great thing and I'm all for any hole which rewards it.  However, it seems a Biarritz relies entirely on the superintendent to play the way we are describing, and in my experience, we only get a guy who maintains our courses the way we want about 50% of the time.  The other 50%, you have a 220-yard par 3, all carry to the front edge.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If the 'correct' approach to playing a Biarritz "...relies entirely on the superintendent"... can this be said about other hole types, like a road hole, and are maintenance issues any less important for them? It seems to me that any hole that offers something other than aerial bombardment is as reliant on conditions as the Biarritz.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  A green with a big deep swale across the front is harder to keep firm and fast than some others.  The approach on the Redan, for example, generally sheds water so it's not hard to keep firm.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Haven't modern irrigation systems post 1950 determined the playability of a hole, especially the approach areas.

I agree that the topography of the Redan lends itself to diverting or disposing of surface water, but, greens ringed with irrigation heads that couldn't be individually set had to have a substantive impact on the conditions, ergo, the play of a hole.

Now, with modern systems and individual head control, I would imagine that the Super has more influence then he did in the last 40+ years.

How much resistance do you see with respect to older clubs REALIGNING their irrigation systems, specifically, their green heads ?