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Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2006, 08:05:33 AM »
Steve,

I'm organizing a protest during the next Flynn Cup (local event) complete with catchy chants (haven't thought of any yet) that demands Philmont secede from the event.


Wayne:

How about something like:

"Come out of the dark, the North's a 'Park'"  or

"You shouldn't play, it's a sin, your North Course is not a Flynn"

 ;D :o ;)

All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

TEPaul

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2006, 08:28:37 AM »
Steve:

You're right, Bob Labbance has tried to run down anything and everything about the North course---and the South course.

Wayne and I met Bob a few years ago when he was doing research for Springhaven. Right away you could tell Bob knows what he's doing and how to go about it. He's been doing this kind of thing for a long time and he's an excellent and honest researcher.

Bob is the one who explained to Philmont about the Platt letter and the North course and the impossible timing of Park doing the South course (as long as I've known Philmont they thought the South course was Park).

Obviously someone at Philmont at some point simply didn't read that Park letter very carefully when they decided to attribute the North course to Flynn and the South course to Park.

Bob pointed out the attribution of the South course to John Reid (he did the original Atlantic City). Apparently Philmont had never been aware of Reid as the architect of their South Course.

Mark Fine asks a very central question above which is WHEN did Philmont FIRST consider the North Course to be Flynn?

If that all started with Andy Karff then that would explain something. Andy's been a friend of mine for years and obviously we don't want to embarrass him or Philmont but Wayne (and Bob) are right---this is simply a matter of factual interpretation at some point.

It's certainly possible that Toomey and Flynn or Toomey and Flynn through William Gordon, or maybe even Gordon on his own just came in and built Philmont North to Park's design since we do know that Park was back in England when the project was under construction and he never returned. If because of that Philmont wants to claim that Flynn DESIGNED Philmont North then we won't stop them from claiming that obviously but we don't ascribe to that kind of architectural attribution. We would only say that it looks to us like Flynn, Toomey with Gordon or maybe Gordon on his own MAY HAVE finished Park's design. Even if they did what about that Platt letter?

Obviously Ellis Gimble who was the driving force behind Philmont at that time and obviously he told Woodie Platt the North course (new course) was a Willie Park Jr design. Why else would Platt call the course a 'Willie Park masterpiece' in that letter and also mention that some Park alterations to the South course improved that course---Philmont's first course?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 08:37:53 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2006, 06:21:56 PM »
I just spent some time studying several aerials of Philmont, North and South courses, from the Dallin collection of Hagley Museum, that cover the period from 1924 (the year the North opened) thru 1939, courtesy of Wayne Morrison.

Based on my suppositions to date, I had fully expected to find a course much different from today, which would lend some credence to the theory that perhaps Flynn came in and made some wholesale changes to the course sometime after it was originally designed in the early 20s, apparently by Park.  After seeing the evidence to date, I had no other way of explaining the fact that the club seemed convinced for many years that William Flynn had been in fact been the designer.

However, what I found was only remarkable in the sense of exactly how well preserved the courses are from the time of their inception.  Yes, there has been some tree growth, but nothing too restrictive, and some other changes have taken place that I'll outline below, but what struck me most is simply the fact that the courses that Philmont golfers play today are by and large the same courses played by their forebearers and are among the most well-preserved in the Philadelphia region.  The North course in particular now seems to be one of the most pure, unadulterated Willie Park Jr. courses in existence.

What has changed over the years?   Let's start with the South course.  

It's impossible to determine exactly what Park did to the South course that John Reid had created but since 1924, the changes on the South are as follows;

* A driving range had been built in the 50s/60s that destroyed what would have likely been the 3rd, 4th, and 5th holes of the South and the father/son team of Willam and David Gordon built 3 new holes to replace them;  today's third, which essentially runs along much of the same corridor as the original 3rd, and then built today's 12th and 13th holes by cutting parallel swaths through the forest up above the par three 11th.

* Sometime between 1924 and 1938 the 18th green was relocated about 60 yards to the left of the original green.  The green that was built, in almost an island of sand, still exists today, but its authorship remains unknown.  The original bunkerless 18th green looked rather unremarkable contrasted to its replacement.

* Some cross bunkers that affected today's holes 7 & 8 were removed.  Sadly, some really cool churchpew bunkering down the right side of 8 has also disappeared over the years, and today's hole is somewhat bland by comparison to the original.

* The creek fronting the 6th green has since been turned into a pond.

Beyond that, the 1924 course is virtually identical to today's.

In the case of the North Course;

Besides the removal of a very few fairway bunkers over the years, and a change on #2 where a pond replaced a diagonal stream crossing in front of the green, and someone's addition of a large fronting bunker on #10 green (all likely done by the Gordons), today's North course is virtually identical to the North course as it existed in 1924.  

Interestingly, I doubt the construction was simply a paper job on farmland, because it's clear from the aerials that several holes on the North had to be created by wholesale cutting of trees in forested areas, such as 1, 2, 9, and most of the "upper" holes near the clubhouse.  So, it would seem that some degree of sophisticated engineering and landscape management had to be employed in the construction of the course, which could lend credence to the Flynn/Toomey construction team theory.

The bottom line to me is simply that if the Platt letter is correct, and there is absolutely no reason to believe a well-known and well-travelled fellow like Platt would be mistaken, then today's North Course at Philmont is indeed one of the most pure of Willie Park's designs, probably in the world.

In any case, it's a very good course and the club should be extremely proud of their heritage and stewardship over the years.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 06:27:09 PM by Mike Cirba »

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2006, 07:11:16 PM »
Mike,

Glad to have confirmation from someone as dedicated to these sorts of attribution efforts as you are.  I am fairly certain the club has these photographs so I wonder how the members interpreted the same information that you looked at.  I'd like to get back those photos when we get together again, I never did scan them so those are the only copies I have.  I know they're in good hands.  Thank you for taking the time to consider the issue.  I think another local golf publication is looking into the history of Philmont.  I'll put them in touch with you if you don't mind.  I think its an interesting story at the cost of a Flynn.  

The club should be honored to have such a relatively intact Willie Park, Jr. course and I hope they'll learn more about that great architect in order to appreciate their heritage more so.  As to the Flynn Cup, I think it will be interesting to see how the club goes forward.  It might well be a Toomey and Flynn construction job though there is no proof of this but it would surprise me if this isn't how the attribution got mistakenly given to Flynn.  I think some of the membership have been following this thread.  Combined with the Philadelphia Inquirer article I hope they learn to accept the news with some delight.

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2006, 09:58:33 PM »

Wayne,

As either you or Mark stated earlier, and I think it was Mark, 95% of the membership could probably care less who designed the course!

I'm sure their are a few who do, and are probably grateful this research is being done.  

As for the Flynn Cup well, didn't Andy Karpf start it?  The Flynn Cup is more about comaradie and playing some of the great local courses that it is about Flynn IMHO.  Philmont, should NOT be asked to give up their affiliation with it.

We missed you today :)

Jason

ps. what a game by leiber tonight!
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2006, 10:48:38 PM »
Wayne,

Didn't you tell me to burn the copies of the Philmont aerials after reading them?  Something about them self-destructing in five minutes otherwise?  ;D

It's just another reason for us to get together again sooner than later.  ;)

Jason,

Flynn cup or Tin cup, I agree with you that the membership should be thrilled by all of the neat stuff about their heritage that is coming to light.

From my viewpoint, they have a pristine Willie Park Jr. course that features many, many superb holes and is probably one of the most wonderful examples on the planet of the work of a fellow who just might be the first real strategic architect in the world and whose work turned the tide towards what was possible on inland courses and who was one of the most important pioneers in launching the Golden Age of design.



 

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2006, 07:24:38 AM »
Jason,

The Flynn Cup is made up of 12 members from each of only 9 Flynn clubs in GAP.  I spoke at one of the dinners, they celebrate Flynn and their architectural relationship to Flynn.  This is the tie that binds the clubs and the reason for the gathering.  There is a national Flynn Invitational that brings together a more diverse collection of Flynn clubs and also celebrate Flynn, discuss restorations, share resources and other matters.  

While I'm not sure that Andy Karff started the Flynn Cup he has certainly been one of the strongest advocates for it and has done an admirable job in raising Flynn's profile.  But it isn't more about comradarie and playing great courses...it is primarily in praise of Flynn.  Shouldn't Flynn courses participate in the Flynn Cup?  And I'm not putting Philmont down, just helping to correct the mis-attribution.  Philmont reason to be proud of their Park heritage and its intactness at that.  They have been given great news in my mind.  If there's a disappointment on their part, I don't get it.  I am glad the truth is becoming better known.  Bob Labbance has been the key to this better understanding.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2006, 05:10:22 PM »
Thanks Tom, Wayne and Mike for clearing up this situation. It seems to me that the club will keep trying to find something to keep the Flynn attribution but that the likliehood of their success seems remote.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont North- Flynn?
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2006, 05:56:54 PM »
Ironically the Flynn Cup is being hosted by Philmont this year.  I wonder if there will be a little buzz about the attribution story.  I suspect there will be.  At a board meeting of one of the clubs participating in the Flynn Cup it was discussed at length.  I wonder who they will get to speak at the dinner?  

Mark Fine usually attends these events; I'm no longer in a particpating club--not that I was invited when I was :)  I hope there's some good humor about the matter and a smattering of talk about the greatness of one Willie Park, Jr. Mark will have to brief us after the event later this year.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 05:57:36 PM by Wayne Morrison »

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