Before Flagsticks

[Steve_Roths]

When golf was created and the first courses were layed out did they use flagsticks?  I was playing last week as a course was still being worked on  and the grounds crew had not put out the flag sticks.  I couldn't get over how hard it was to gauge distances.  Not necessarily hit close to the hole but just hitting the greens.  

[ForkaB]

Steve

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have experience of playing greens without flags, mostly relating to very early (4-6am) rounds.  I find, as a reasonably good player (6HCP), NOT having a pin makes me more accurate.  I am confident that if you just aim for the middle of every green, and hit the ball reasonably cleanly, you will have more birdie putts than if you aim for the pin.  Of course, I never do that when there ARE pins in the green.......

[Tom Roewer]

Steve

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have experience of playing greens without flags, mostly relating to very early (4-6am) rounds.  I find, as a reasonably good player (6HCP), NOT having a pin makes me more accurate.  I am confident that if you just aim for the middle of every green, and hit the ball reasonably cleanly, you will have more birdie putts than if you aim for the pin.  Of course, I never do that when there ARE pins in the green.......

[Tom Roewer]

Rich I thoroughly agree with you.  Being a golf instructor I have for years attempted to teach golfers of all abilities to do the same (aim to middle of the green)  I find that most golfers will hit 25% short,25% long, 25% right, and 25%left of their target, ergo some shots will be close but more will find the green.  I sometimes wonder how we survived without detailed yardage books and GPS help, much less rakes for bunkers.  It is certainly a lost art - using simply your iron to smooth a bunker.  I do remember the outcry when our course decided to put a single boxwood on either side of the fairway to mark 150 yds. to the green.  Ah the good old days.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Steve

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have experience of playing greens without flags, mostly relating to very early (4-6am) rounds.  I find, as a reasonably good player (6HCP), NOT having a pin makes me more accurate.  I am confident that if you just aim for the middle of every green, and hit the ball reasonably cleanly, you will have more birdie putts than if you aim for the pin.  Of course, I never do that when there ARE pins in the green.......

Concur with Rich as well - and I might not have before I too had personal experience with this.  I got to play a course out here called Shadow Lakes a few times before it opened, and each time there were no flagsticks - just a hole cut somewhere in the green.  And these are some huge greens, with weird tiers and the like... Even in this situation where you'd think it would help to know what tier the hole was on, my friend and I still did a LOT better in those rounds than in subsequent ones with flagsticks...

Of course translating this lesson to real golf is a tough sell - like Rich, I can't seem to make myself disregard flagsticks when they are present.  But Tom R. - of course you are correct - but I just bet you have a hard time convincing many golfers....

TH

[Steve_Roths]

For some reason I just can't seem to hit a green when there is not a flagstick there.  I am good with the short irons but for some reason I just couldn't hit the middle of the green.  I was just curious if the game started off without anything directing them home.

[Troy Alderson]

Gentlemen,

Let's not forget that the USGA defines the pin as a stick alone.  No flag is neccessary.  Flags were brought in to better indentify the location of the pin.  When that was not enough for golfers, colored flags came in to indentify front, middle, and back pin placements.  Now we have yardage in the fairways and yardage books to pin point the location which most golfers cannot zero in on anyways.  TOO MUCH INFORMATION EQUALS WORSE GOLFERS, IMHO.  

Let's get back to the fundmentals of golf.

Troy

[peter_p]

Troy,
The USGA does not define "pin" anywhere. I doubt the word is even in the rulebook.

[Troy Alderson]

Troy,
The USGA does not define "pin" anywhere. I doubt the word is even in the rulebook.

Peter,

I may stand corrected, please help me understand.  I will admit to not knowing the rule book cover to cover, but my recollection is as my previous post.  Hence why Merion uses the baskets.  I thought for sure remembering the USGA rule book defining the pin or what ever they call it.  So is a locator of the hole required or not?

Troy

[peter_p]

The definition for 'flagstick' is a movable straight indicator, with or without bunting or other material attached...  
Overall, you're right.

Chapman's The Rules of the Green mentions three pre-flagstick methods:
a) an Aberdeen rule (1783)which prohibits a person from standing at the hole for direction when the hole is distinctly in view;
b) at Blackheath (c1874), the players were preceded by a scout who carries a red flag (to mark the position of the hole; and at
c) Liverpool (1869) the first players in a competition had the duty to place a feather, or some other object, in the hole to mark its positition for those following.
c