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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bedford Springs Resort
« on: May 11, 2006, 10:23:42 AM »
We have finally received permission to begin conversations about the restoration and ultimate ressurection of the Bedford Springs Resort.  The project is about to go into full swing with the golf course reconstruction.  This is a fascinating project for us to be involved with.  The Resort itself dates to the late 1700's through the work of a Dr. Anderson and his use of 7 medicinal springs.  He developed a Resort in the early 1800's with the first bulding being erected in 1805.  Subsequent additions came in the 1820's then in the 1855's.  The original structure and additions still stand.  They are receiving a full face lift with the targeted restoration date of 1855.  The Resort aspect of the building came to an end over 20 years ago and at that time was not appealing.

The golf course was orginally laid out in 1895 with features still present on todays course.  The 2nd green and possibly the 3rd green have been played to for 111 years.  Without question the 2nd green has been there from the beginning.  The original course was 18 holes.  Tillie came in about 1912 and rerouted the course and as far as we can tell (records do not exist) he left behind a nine hole course.  "The Course Beautiful" features a discussion on his TINY TIM hole.  In 1923, Ross visited the course and laid out 18 holes.  That course remained intact until the early 80's.  In an attempt to gain more yardage a par 3 (seen in the background of the Tiny Tim photo) and the 18th hole were eliminated.  The 18th was turned into the driving range.  We are bringing back the 1923 routing and turning the new holes into a range and wetland.  Another apect of the project is the restoration of 6,000 linear feet of a high quality stream and two smaller tributaries.  These will remain as an important feature of the course.  The restoration of a stream back to its original floodplain and pre-clearing elevation is a fascinating process and one courses need to consider in lieu of the old fix-up - gabions and walls.

We expect to open the course next summer.  This is the first year in 111 years that golf has not been played.

The entire project is like taking a step back in time.  Bedford is a beautiful quiet town that seems to have been forgotten with the addition of the PA Turnpike.  

The Owner asks that none of the photos be reproduced without the express written authorization of the Bedford Springs Resort Partners, LTP.  The photos are a small sample of the over 3,000 artifacts that exist from the past.  Hope the photos can be seen.

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/63a3re2.jpg?phws0YEBat0hRb4S

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/4112re2.jpg?phws0YEBs1DXk6nG

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/ca88re2.jpg?phws0YEB8wag049G

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/682fre2.jpg?phws0YEB0aJzyh0b

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/4f48re2.jpg?phY80YEBzlBucE.L

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/5d95re2.jpg?phws0YEBn5GlrjYL

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/ebf2re2.jpg?phws0YEBE1h8RcqD

http://www.forsedesign.net/bedford-springs/1895_routing.jpg

http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/e5c1re2.jpg?phws0YEBU3GrHwwY
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 10:27:35 AM by JNagle »
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 10:27:18 AM »
Jim,
I have heard good things about what you have planned and I wish you the best of luck.  I'm sure it will be a dramatic improvement when you are finished.
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 10:36:18 AM »
Jim,

I'm having no luck opening the photographs.  Firefox (my web browser) says server can't be found.

Probably because you've listed the sites as yahoofs.com?  Must be a western PA thing ;)

Tom Paul told me about his visit yesterday and he had great things to say about the resort, the potential for returning the place to something really fine and your ability to realize it.  Best wishes on the project.  I hope you'll give us updates.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 10:37:33 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 10:45:14 AM »
Jim,

That's really exciting.  Please keep up informed as to progress.

Thanks,
Mike

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 10:50:00 AM »
 Jim and Ron,

   Good luck. I played there 30 years ago ; it is in my wife's grandmother's town. I expect we will get there again after your work. I have a bunker idea that you can bring out there  ;D;it isn't needed around here.
AKA Mayday

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 10:51:37 AM »
JNagle,  Congratulations.  I stopped at Bedford Springs and played the course fifteen years ago on my way back from taking my daughter to college.  At the time I thought that this must have been quite the place in its day.  Can't wait to see what you do with the place.  Good luck.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 11:16:25 AM »
JNagle
Congratulations on an exciting project. I can't wait to see this
golf course when things are finished!

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 02:44:21 PM »
Jim,

My parents visited Bedford Springs annually for many years 25-30 years ago and loved the hotel and golf course. This is great news, and best of luck with the project. When it's done I may take my Mom there again (76 and still playing a lot of golf).

Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 02:45:07 PM »
Jim:

Considering all the interconnectedness of all the restoration projects and areas going on there at once (hotel, golf course, and stream configurations) that was all a bit more yesterday than I could take in at one time.

I didn't really have an opportunity to think about it on the drive home because just to the east of the Bedford exit I hooked on to a big Mercedes from New York that was going between a max of 120 and a minimum of 100 and I just slipstreamed him all the way to Philly, so that took most of my concentration for a few hours.

However, when I got home the extent and complexity of that course restoration project really hit me.

What I mean to say, even though I sure haven't been able to think through those three eras on the course that well I think it would be a wonderful thing if you guys could restore most any feature that remains or is documentable from either the 1895 course, the Tillie course and the Ross course even if some of them might not make complete architectural or strategic sense.

What I'm saying is you guys may have a project considering all that's going on there in all phases that is somewhat similar to the way Rome's Forum is being treated and perhaps will always have to be treated. In other words they are trying to expose everything that happened there throughout its entire evolution that spanned literally a few thousand years and that ain't easy considering one era was built right on top of the previous one.  ;)

In other words, you may be able to restore a course or even some of the features or even holes of the previous ones that can play to today's values while at the same time clearly showing the architectural arrangement of very different values of days gone by.

I realize there are tons of obstacles to doing that on that limited space but I think you catch my drift.

It could be something like Gary Van Sickle's take on Beford Springs itself that it's like passing from one era to the next to the next as you pass through it.

I certainly realize the only truly logical thing to do is to restore it back to Ross's last iteration as much as possible but I sure hope you can retain all those features that preceded him even if just for the look of them and the historic value of them.

I hope the owners will consider presenting this restoration for what it could be----eg a nice day of golf while at the same time passing through 111 years of diverse golf architectural history.

Ask the owner if some of us in conjunction with you guys could have the opportunity to write up a description of what this could be for those who play golf there in the future. That they are playing across a complete evolution of the eras of golf architecture in America would make playing the course that much more interesting and understandable to golfers.

Lastly, there just has to be some way of iterating that amazing hill/mound back into a green that it must have once been. If that unbelievable landform was only used as a tee in the future it would be a crying waste of a great landform.

Tell the owner that landform is so neat as the green site it once was that if 10-20 people need to die in the future playing it that it's definitely worth their sacrifice.  ;)

Wait til you guys see Ross's Volcano hole restored.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 02:50:36 PM by TEPaul »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 02:54:27 PM »
I don't don't how the volcano hole used to look back in, say the 1920's,  but I know how it looked about 4 years ago. The hole is certainly a conversation piece for the course. The par 3 over a deep chasm was pretty cool, too. A very interesting piece of ground with great potential.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 02:59:54 PM »
Very exciting Jim. It looks to be an incredible project.

Best of luck.

Bob

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 03:29:45 PM »
We had plans to play Bedford a year ago, but had to re-group due to
"4 or 5 holes being badly flooded." Anyone know if this happens
often, or only during rains of biblical proportions?

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 03:30:12 PM »
Tom -

I will pass all of this along to the Owner.  

I almost felt it necessary to apologize yesterday as we covered so much in a short period of time.  We are attempting to keep as much of the history there as we can.  It is tough to span the three era's but it is something we are excited about and look forward to doing.  The owner is committed to a walking history where signs and stone monuments will document the features from years past.

The recollections posted by others are what we hear alot about the Resort.  It seems to have a tender spot in many hearts.  Everyone really seemed to love the place.

Hopefully all can see the Volcano hole now.  This is from a few weeks ago when trees were beginning to fall.

http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/The%20Volcano%20Hole.jpg
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 03:38:07 PM »
My recollection is that the rise up to the green is steeper than it appears in the picture, with a pretty good back to front tilt.

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 04:14:13 PM »
"Tom -
I will pass all of this along to the Owner."

Jim:

If you do I hope he understands what I mean. I'm not sure I explained that very clearly.  

"I almost felt it necessary to apologize yesterday as we covered so much in a short period of time."

Don't apologize, it's not that you covered too much it's just that I'm pretty dumb. When I hear a simple explanation about something I usually need a day or two to take it in before going on to the next issue. Give me two issues at the same time and I TILT.   ;)

Furthermore, I'm not too certain I believe that Tillinghast did that second iteration of Bedford Springs. After this Cascades thing I did some checking in Bedford County records and the county told me they think Flynn was the one who did the second iteration course at Bedford Springs, not Tillinghast. George Bahto said he suspects Raynor might have done it and some guy on here sent me an email saying he thinks Harry Colt designed the second iteration while stopping off briefly in Bedford Springs on his way from Illinois to Pine Valley. Andy Karff of Philmont, or was it Kyle Harris called me and said he thinks Willie Park Jr might have designed it on his way to or from State College. When I told him Willie didn't make that trip for about another decade he asked me what that had to do with anything. Mike Cirba called to say he thinks Bedford Springs was done in ten iterations instead of three. And if I find out that "ne'er do well" J.B. McGovern was ever in Bedford Springs that'll seriously call into question the Ross attribution on the third iteration. And Mark Fine said it doesn't matter who worked on the Bedford Springs course over the years, all that matters is that the owner of Bedford Springs is happy with whoever he thinks did the courses of those various eras.   ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 04:23:57 PM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 04:27:53 PM »
unfortunately, I can't see any of the yahoo photos and get this message:
Firefox can't find the server at phvrf.yahoo.com

But, I can see the forsedesign vulcano.  Good luck on the project Jim.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 04:30:31 PM »
Jim Nagle did make another interesting observation yesterday that I actually did pick up on. That was that some of those old greens out there that are rolling about -13 on the stimpmeter are so high that poa doesn't grow in them. In my mind that means poa is like a f.... shark---eg if it smells blood (stress) it attacks!!   ;)

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 04:45:05 PM »
Let's try this again with the photos.

Tillies "Tiny Tim" - 1930's
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/14%20-%20Tiny-Tim.jpg

1895 Routing of the course.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1895%20GC%20routing.jpg

Old Par 3 - Approximate location of the current 10th hole.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1906%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg

Old 17th Hole (1895 Course) - near location of current #1 green
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1914%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg

Lobby of the Resort - 1950's
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%201.jpg

1950's Pool - Installed in the 1800's - first indoor Olmpic sized pool

http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%203.jpg

Berm crossing what is the current 13th hole, was the 16th in the 1895 course.  The bumps in the background upper left are still there.

http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/old%20golf%20course%20photo%201.jpg
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 05:55:44 PM »
(Hopefully Jim won't mind that I did this. Jim, if you do, let me know and I'll delete it.)

Tillies "Tiny Tim" - 1930's


1895 Routing of the course.


Old Par 3 - Approximate location of the current 10th hole.


Old 17th Hole (1895 Course) - near location of current #1 green


Lobby of the Resort - 1950's


1950's Pool - Installed in the 1800's - first indoor Olmpic sized pool



Berm crossing what is the current 13th hole, was the 16th in the 1895 course.  The bumps in the background upper left are still there.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 06:15:24 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2006, 10:02:54 AM »
Jim, will the restoration match the anticipated golf course maintenance operating budget? In other words are the owners fully aware of what type of dollars it will take to protect their investment? Are they willing to spend the money to hire the right person and give that person the right amount of resources to truly make it a special place for a long time or are they going to just turn the maintenance over to a management company with the lowest bid?

It is always a shame to see such great work in the beginning and then for that hard work to be lost because of lack of support or funds.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2006, 10:26:27 AM »
John -

The golf course superintendent has been hired.  His name is David Swartzel and he came from Philly Cricket.  We are working with Terry Buchen a very well respected turf consultant.  The owner recognizes the need for continued maintenance and a "certain" look.  That has been stressed from the beginning by Ron Forse.  If you want a classic course there is some additional "hand work" that must be done.  Benchmark Golf and Benchmark Hospitality will manage both facilities upon completion and to date they have been great to work with.  There is some give and take, but in the end it appears that we all are reaching the intended goals.

It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

SMay

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2006, 11:47:49 AM »
Jim

Sounds like you guys are finally getting to move forward.  It should be a real interesting project.  Best of luck with it and keep us posted.  

The Upper 18th green survived last nights rain (1.5 inches) and is growing in well.  

Scott

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2006, 01:02:56 PM »
Jim, that is good to hear. I have worked with Terry before and he has very high standards for doing things right.

Sounds like a good project and will be long after your gone.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

TEPaul

Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2006, 05:00:32 PM »
Jim:

There is no question of it---the 9th hole must have two greens---a regular green on the right and an alternate green on the left and you know where the alternate green must be. What golf course has two volcano greens? The answer is no golf course does---not yet anyway.

;)

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bedford Springs Resort
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2006, 02:36:02 PM »
Bumping this up as the year draws to a close to see if there's an update on progress at Bedford Springs...
Twitter: @Deneuchre

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