Where do Doak's courses rate on the Doak scale?

[Jordan Wall]

A Question.

What was Tumble Creek rated on the Doak Scale??

Thanks.

[Tom Huckaby]

The cat is out of the bag.  I now assume everyone here gives bonus points to the classic courses that have played host to the great players in the game's storied history.  Drunk with feelings of nostalgia, Mr. Huckaby proclaimed, "I can't believe it.  I'm walking the same 18th hole where Arnold Palmer made a 12 in the second round of the Los Angeles Open.  Rancho Park is an 8, for sure."  

 
Touche.
I have to admit that plaque does impress me at Rancho.
 

[Kevin Pallier]

This thread is a few years old now - but with a visit to the US pending I'd be keen to hear where GCAers view Doaks courses some 3+ years on ?

[Kyle Henderson]

I can only comment on Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes. IMHO, they're both in the 9-10 range.

[Richard Choi]

I really need to play more of Tom's courses, but from what I have played and based on the definition of the Doak Scale, I would rate them thusly;

Pacific Dune - 10 - There are no weak holes and many inspiring ones. Location/environment/land is fantastic.
Ballyneal - 9 - Again, no weak holes.
Common Grounds - 5 - A step or two above a normal muni. A lot of interesting challenges

[Jack Vance]

Made the pilgrimage to Bandon in June...Pacific Dunes was my favorite of the 3 + 10 holes at Old Mc Donald...
Great track...easily a 9!!

[Pete_Pittock]

Given the land at Pacific Dunes anything  or under would be malfeasance. Having played and walked a number of 10s I would have to rate it a 9, very reluctantly. There is a definite step between a 9 and a 10, and Pacific Dunes is like a old Kilroy cartoon, peering over the riser but not quite there.

Edited after three days at Merion.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,

Would you rate Riverfront ahead of Beechtree (RIP) or vice versa or about the same in the 5 to 6 range? or better?

[Rob Rigg]

PD is fantastic, as was the preview round at OM.

If Ballybunion is a 10 then PD deserves to at least be considered for the same honor. Both are fabulous courses is spectacular settings.

[Jim Franklin]

I know Tom doesn't agree, but Rock Creek is a 10 to me. Just a fabulous, fun round of golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I too am a big fan of Rock Creek -- but a 10 ?

Be curious to know your take on the final hole -- does it really add to the compelling architecture that precedes it ?

In Doak's "10" rating -- "every hole can't be missed."

How would you also rate Pac Dunes and Ballyneal ?

Thanks ...

[Michael Dugger]

Jim:

I too am a big fan of Rock Creek -- but a 10 ?

Be curious to know your take on the final hole -- does it really add to the compelling architecture that precedes it ?

In Doak's "10" rating -- "every hole can't be missed."

How would you also rate Pac Dunes and Ballyneal ?

Thanks ...

Way to bring down the bottomline, Ward...

[Michael Dugger]

Is it conceivable???

[Michael Dugger]

Barnbougle???

[Michael Dugger]

CP

[Jim Nugent]

In Doak's "10" rating -- "every hole can't be missed."

Matt, Tom wrote that, but later said he needs to drop that criteria.  Several courses he rates as 10 don't have 18 can't-miss holes. 

With a different (and do-able) 18th hole, could you rate RCCC a 10? 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I loved Rock Creek -- it's really well done and likely the somewhat remote location will be a tough haul for a number of people to see it.

The collective par-4's there are the best I have played from the Doak courses I have sampled to date.

I don't think the finale there isa bad hole but less so than what comes before it. In my own personal ratings there are very few bonafide "10's" -- Rock Creek would likely be in the 9 range for sure though. To answer your question -- if a different / doable hole were subsituted, then yes a 10 could well be scored by me.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
What are your bonafide 10's? 

[Craig Sweet]

Rock Creek is far less remote than Bandon, Sand Hill, and Ballyneal...you are less than 1 hour from an airport with with regular flights from Salt Lake and Denver...and just over 90 miles from Missoula...

The ONLY thing that will keep "a number of people" from seeing it is the exclusiveness of the club... believe me if the "general public " could stay and play there and it was advertised as such, they would come and play...

[Matt_Ward]

CarL:

Good question ...

How bout for starters -- Shinnecock Hills, Oakmont, Merion / East, Sand Hills, Cypress Point, NGLA. I likely can add a few others but the emphasis would be on "few" -- giving a course a nine (9) is not exactly saying such a course(s) are not outstanding in nearly every way.

Craig:

Read what I wrote OK -- "somewhat remote location."

OK - so it's less remote than Bandon, LInks of ND, Sand Hills etc, etc, but it's not exactly on I-5 or I-95.  In regards to your final statement -- no doubt if the course were available to the public it would be visited by a large group of avid type golfers.  I did say -- in the event you didn't notice -- that Rock Creek has totally changed the dynamics of Montana golf and now becomes a high benchmark for anything that attempts to match or exceed it.

[Andy Troeger]

The one reason I don't like scales that are purely 1-10 (or 0-10) is an issue with one like Rock Creek. To me, no course is perfect and thus in that sense no course really deserves a  "perfect" 10. I'd probably be more likely to give Rock Creek a 9 than a 10 I guess, but I can see an argument either way. In reality, its about a 9.5 for me.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

The last thing I would do is bother to argue about whether you think Rock Creek is a 9 or a 10.  I'll take a 9 for any course, any day.

But I am curious -- do you really like the 18th hole at Cypress Point?  Most people would say about that hole, just what you say about the 18th at Rock Creek.  That didn't faze me from giving Cypress a 10 in my book, but you attach more emphasis on finishing holes than I do.

[DMoriarty]

When you get up around nine or ten, I surely do not feel qualified to say.   But I wonder if all courses should have to stand some sort of a test of time before even being considered as among the very best ever.   Like a waiting period for the hall of fame.

But I am curious -- do you really like the 18th hole at Cypress Point?  Most people would say about that hole, just what you say about the 18th at Rock Creek.  That didn't faze me from giving Cypress a 10 in my book, but you attach more emphasis on finishing holes than I do.

Tom, I wouldn't even play along by comparing the drop off on the last hole at Cypress to the supposed drop off at Rock Creek.   The last at RC is a very good golf hole, but one with more subtlety that Matt is capable of appreciating.  He prefers par fives with blatant features where he can get home in two with relative ease but others must conquer additional obstacles to even get home in three.   Rock Creek doesn't fit that bill so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't appreciate it. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I still would give CP a "10" -- the 18th is not my cup of tea -- nor was it Jimmy Demaret's - but the sum total of what is there at CP is more than able to withstand any possible letdown the 18th hole provides.

Interesting point you raise -- what role does an 18th hole serve ?

No doubt -- that role can be quite flexible and should not always follow a set pattern -- e.g. the predictable long par-4 closer that is used in plenty of instances.

I have no issue with just about any type of hole being used for a closer -- it can be a risk / reward type hole, it can provide more opportunity for a closing birdie to end the day -- but one that will not give it away -- the 18th at TOC is a great example of that.

Tom, you designed a stellar par-5 with the 3rd at Pac Dunes. I like the challenge it presents no matter what the wind direction is. Possibly, I was looking for somehting of that type of hole -- where the range of options / possibilities is far greater than what the finale at Rock Creek is able to provide.

David M:

My God -- I actually agree with you in principle to what you mentioned.

Let me point out that it would be helpful if the ratings were to develop a waiting period for new courses before they can be cosidered for inclusoion -- Digest used to have a waiting period because of how Harbour Town jumped into the top of the ratings shortly after opening. Plenty of courses get the "buzz" factor going early -- the issue is whether they can maintain such momentum a few years down the road.

David, before leaving -- I can appreciate subtlety no more / less than you. I don't see the 18th at Rock Creek at the same level as the holes that precede it. It's a good hole -- but for a lahout of the pedigree of Rock Creek I was expecting more. Again, your predictable lament that I need some sort of "blatant features" is laughable -- I throoughly enjoyed the par-5 10th at Rock Creek. I can name tons of par-5's that I have enjoyed immensely that follow a similar pattern / presentation. I don't rate holes on how they play to my game alone -- that is your consistent erroneous assertion. Like I said the 18th at Rock Creek is a good hole -- but what Rock Creek offers is far more than simply good.

[DMoriarty]

No. 10 at Rock Creek is what you came up with for a subtle hole?  God bless ya, Matt.  Your so clueless you make my point for me.