Where do Doak's courses rate on the Doak scale?

[Jim Nugent]

I've not played any, but it sounds like all must rate pretty high to damn high.  Anyone willing to get specific?  Is Pacific Dunes a 10?  Cape Kidnappers?  What about the rest of his courses?  Any fives or sixes, or less, in the mix?

The ones that are nearly finished, and open soon, should be open to discussion, too.  

On a related note, the Doak scale gives us a numerical way to compare architects.  One example: take the top ten courses by Mac, Tillie, Colt, Doak, Dye, Ross, etc, as measured by the Doak scale.  Average them.  See how they measure up against each other.

This would be one way to mathematically test the proposition made recently in another thread that Tillie is the greatest architect of all.  



 

[Kevin Pallier]

Jim,

In Australia:

Barnbougle Dunes = 9

St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta) =  7


On your related note - I would suggest that Dr Mackenzie would still be the yardstick and Ross / Colt would be pushing Tillinghurst.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Beechtree 7

Stonewall Old 6

Now Tom is going to come on here and tell you the above is switched, but Beechtree is pretty unique in that area, and Tom is just pissed that the developer made him build the second or third hole, I can't remember which one.

In the land of Flynn 7's, Stonewall Old is just not that unique. It might be a 7 in Florida, but it sits in SE Pennsylvania. However, the 18th at Stonewall Old is a great one.

I really want to see the Doakified Atlantic City this season. It used to be a 6, and I will be shocked if Tom did not improve it.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Mike,

Are you talking about the par 3 (2) at Beechtree that goes over the irrigation pond?  

[wsmorrison]

"I really want to see the Doakified Atlantic City this season. It used to be a 6, and I will be shocked if Tom did not improve it."

I think it was dramatically improved.  While some of the large waste areas were not restored, so much was done that improved the golf course in the new holes and the reworking of old ones.  Fairway contours were introduced on holes that had little movement, the raising the level of some holes on the back nine helps forestall flooding and there is some great architecture introduced that really adds to the golf experience at this historic course.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Are you talking about the par 3 (2) at Beechtree that goes over the irrigation pond?  

Yes that is it. I actually like the hole by the way, but then again I like a few Rees courses too!

Everyone I know that has walked Sebonack says at least an 8, if you are counting partnership courses.

Wayne,

Come on. That was a big hanging curve for you with the Doak Flynn comparison in Philly. Don't worry Tom can take it two months before the opening of Sebonack and Ballyneal!  

[wsmorrison]

Like the big hanging curves the Phillies were lobbing yesterday at Mets hitters  

I honestly think a Philadelphia Flynn or two are architectural 8s, but I agree that there are a solid bunch of courses around here and its tough for old and tougher for new courses to break into the pantheon.

I like Beechtree quite a bit but am ashamed to admit I've only been to Stonewall Old once and Stonewall New during construction.  I have to head back sometime soon.

[Andrew Thomson]

I'd give the two local Doak Course's I've played 8's

Gunnamatta
Cape Kidnappers

I'd give Legends a 6 which is the only other Doak course I've played.

Gunnamatta is a low 8 and CK is a high 8.

[Brad Tufts]

I'd say that Pacific Dunes is easily an 8 or 9.

Legends-Heathland is probably a 5+...despite being not so unique for Myrtle, it stands out in the sea of imitation courses.

Stonewall-Old is a 6-ish.

Apache Stronghold's design is a 7, though recent events may make it a bit lower currently.

That does it for my Doak experiences.  Tom, you need to build in the Northeast (New England), although the new #14 at Essex County is a pretty good taste!  Now that Hanse and C+C have built up here, we are lacking a good Doaking.  (Was rained out of Old Sandwich on Tuesday).

[Tim Pitner]

I don't think I've played a course rated by Doak as a 10 so comparison is difficult, but Pacific Dunes would have to be at least a 9 and perhaps a 10.

[David_Elvins]

It always amazes me how many people not named Doak can come up with Doak ratings.  

[ed_getka]

David,
   The criteria are in The Confidential Guide, so it isn't like everybody is guessing.

[John Kirk]

Pacific Dunes is a 10.

By definition, I'd say Stone Eagle is an 8, one of the very best courses in the region.  It is a very consistently enjoyable test.  My enjoyment of the course is slightly diminished because it's a little too difficult for me to walk.  I'll be excited to hear what others think after the King's Putter tournament.  Please be careful for rattlesnakes in the rocks.

Ballyneal is very walkable, and has a great variety of golf holes in a very unusual environment (sand, turtles and flowers).  It is essential that all of the carefully made decisions about irrigation and grass selection result in a fast, firm, and healthy playing surface.  My "sources" tell me things are looking good so far.  We have high hopes that the course will be well regarded.  

[Steve_Roths]

Pacific Dunes 10
Ballyneal 9
Stone Eagle 8
Barnbougle 9
Cape Kidnappers 8
Sheep Ranch 9

[John Kirk]

I think it's hard to put a number on Ballyneal, until we see how those heavily sloped greens play with the grass cut short.  Steve's rating is in the right ballpark, though.  The course flow is really good.  There are no routing problems like the walk from 11 green to 12 tee at Pac Dunes.

It's so hard to separate the environment and course beauty from shot values.  It's just so spectacular walking around Pac Dunes with the marine air and the views.  Perhaps all seaside courses receive higher marks.

[Tom Huckaby]

Perhaps it's time for a refresher on just what Mr. Doak means by his numbers.


0: so contrived and unnatural, cannot recommend under any circumstances.

1: Very basic course; clear architectural malpractice and/or
poor maintenance. Avoid even if desperate for a game.

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

3: about the level of the avg. course in the world.

4: modestly interesting; with at least a couple of distinctive holes or some scenic interest. Also reserved for some very good courses which are much too short or narrow to  provide sufficient chalenge for low-handicappers.

5: Well above the avg. course, but the middle of this scale. A good course if in the vicinity, but not worth setting aside a day to visit.

6:  A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

7:  An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

9:  Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.


Does this change any answers?

I've only played Pacific Dunes.  I love it tremendously.  But I also own Confidential Guide, and I know how sparingly Doak himself doles out 10s.  Thus I can't give it a 10... not given the many other courses of similar greatness to which he gives 9s.  9 it is for me.

I look forward to playing Stone Eagle next month... and yes, I will be wary of rattlers.  

[ed_getka]

Pac Dunes 9
High Point 7 (back when I saw it, I understand they have conditoning issues that don't allow the course to play exactly as intended.
Lost Dunes 7-8  There are some really great greens there that are reason enough to go see LD.

My favorite criteria is a 2, gotta love the scramble and beer rating.

[Mike_Cirba]

Pac Dunes - 9.5  (It'll be a 10 if it still looks/plays that good in 5 years)

Stonewall Old - 7

Stonewall North - 7 (the more fun of the two courses with architectural features that ARE pretty unique for the area, although I'd still say the Old is an overall better course)

Beechtree - 6

Legends Heathland - 5.5 (Still better than 90% of what's in Myrtle Beach)

Sheep Ranch - 20

[PThomas]

gotta give P Dunes a 10..i guess I could see how someone might only give it a 9, but anything lower than that would be very hard to understand

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - check Confidential Guide, see the very few courses to which he gives a 10, the much more numerous very great courses to which he gives a 9, then report back.

If we are going by Doak's standards - and it is after all his scale - then Pacific Dunes is a 9.  I doubt he himself - likely out of modesty more than anything else - would give it a 10.  But maybe so.  If he does though he disses quite a few great courses, relatively speaking.

 

[PThomas]

Paul - check Confidential Guide, see the very few courses to which he gives a 10, the much more numerous very great courses to which he gives a 9, then report back.

If we are going by Doak's standards - and it is after all his scale - then Pacific Dunes is a 9.  I doubt he himself - likely out of modesty more than anything else - would give it a 10.  But maybe so.  If he does though he disses quite a few great courses, relatively speaking.

 

I did that alreayd Huck!

and somewhere I believe I read where Tom gave PD a 10

[Tom Huckaby]

PT - well then I stand corrected.

And I still think it's a 9.  The difficult walkability (ie a few long walks from green to tee) are enough to get it under 10 for me.  But mainly it's a relative thing.  I can't in good conscience put it above darn near all of the other 9s he lists...  But I may be working from faulty memory - don't have the book here - what are the other 9s he lists in the book?  What were the very very few 10s?

I could have this wrong.

But in any case, that horrid state assumed not to occur (me being wrong), to use the golfweek vernacular, it's a solid 9.  A very very solid 9.

TH

[Michael Dugger]

Does it really matter, though?  Throw a blanket over Pac, Barnbougle, Stone Eagle, Cape K, Ballyneal and Sebonac.

As a body of work they stomp just about anyone else working, save Ben and Bill.

[Tim Pitner]

And I still think it's a 9.  The difficult walkability (ie a few long walks from green to tee) are enough to get it under 10 for me.  

Tom, this from the man who declares Sand Hills to be the best in the world?  I've not had the pleasure of playing Sand Hills, but I understand it's not the most walkable course around.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Oh my - that puts the T in Touche.  Well said.

I just had to think of SOME "weakness" of PD and that's all that sprang to mind.

OK, maybe it is a 10... Sand Hills sure is.

I just do recall a large list of pretty incredible 9s... thus keeping me from elevating PD above them.  But oh yes as these posts prove, I surely can be wrong.