[Mike_Sweeney]

With the help of Frank's new website,
I thought the first at Enniscrone was
the perfect chance to ask the question
on PunchBowl maintenance meld.

The first at Enniscrone is a natural
punchbowl, where there is thick grass
just a couple of feet up from the
surface. Thus the thick grass normally
acts a real penalty if you hit the sides
of the bowl. This is in contrast with
many MacRayor courses here where
the punchbowl feeds the ball to the
hole. Which is better?

Enniscrone approach to 373 yard
par 4 #1. The tee shot is pretty bland,
however you have to put in the
fairway to see the green.

Approach to Enniscrone:









Looking Back down the fairway it appears that the green could be much bigger and the sides could be shaved.



As a contrast, here is National's.
It is a much bigger area to work
with, but clearly National stretches
things out and let's the ball bounce
onto the green. I would argue that
the first hole should give the player a break?

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, from the punchbowls I've seen, they are not too comparative.  They have a variety of settings, from totally manufactured to naturals.  Some naturals are set in a high bowl like Enniscrones.  I think 18 at Sand Hills also resembles that.  Those two sites have a terrain and links setting where the long native grasses tumble down from on high and the lips of the bowl are mowed conservatively, and only slightly up those hill slopes that form the bowl.

Yet, the best manufactured punchbowl I've seen is 8 at Milwaukee's Blue Mound CC.  It is set to rise up from the LZ in FW, has a crossing bunker well short, has a greensite on the higher ground that is a bowl of hillocks surrounding the extreemly sloped lips of the bowl, yet then the whole green complex falls away from the raised bowl, back and left sides considerably.  That one is maintained in fringe cut well up from the putting surface, because part of the strategy is to be able to use the side slopes in both putting and approaches to get to various pin positions within a ver large and well internally contoured green.  

So, I think the maintenance meld is highly dependant on the site, style, and surrounding terrain characteristics of any one particular punchbowl.  

[Brendan Dolan]

I really like the first at Enniscrone, but agree that the green could be bigger.  Since it sits between two natural dunes I don’t think that the rough should be maintained any lower then it is in the pictures.  Although I certainly feel that the greens keeper should try to keep the rough as thin as possible so that balls can take impromptu kicks onto the green.

As an aside note what do you guys think of drains being put in the middle of a punchbowl green for drainage, during big storms and winter.  After trying to grow in the 4th at Erin Hills, and having a huge puddle in the middle the architects decided to have a drainage pipe installed in the middle of the green.  Certainly an interesting maintenance problem.

Thanks,
Brendan

[Tom Roewer]

I think two perfect examples of different maintenance of punchbowls of manufactured holes would be #12 Chicago G.G.  and #15 Mountain Lake.  #12 calls for a decidedly uphill approach shot and the rough is very strong just off the putting surface to the top of the mounding.  #15 is a very flat hole and the entire punchbowl is mowed closely all the way to the top.  It seems that you have a difficult green surround on a more difficult hole (#12) and a more receptive green on a beautiful but rather benign hole (#15).  I'm not sure if this maintenance has been left in the hands of each supt. or if there was ever instruction laid down by the architect originally?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

In the case of Mountain Lake, it is my understanding that Silva did not have great historicals for that hole, so it is somewhat interpretive. Since it is a short hole less than 350, it is my guess that Brian wanted to have a smaller target area, thus the punchbowl is basically green, no rough. It would look silly and probably would not hold balls due to the steepness anyway if the edges were rough.

[ForkaB]

I played two rounds at Deal last week, and the 12th (see Ran's review on this site) was amazing.  More of a "birth canal" than a "punchbowl," but they bikini-waxed the sides (god knows how) to create some amazing happenstances when balls were hit (even slightly) off line.

Modesty forbids me in telling you how I got my 4 there on riday........

[Brent Hutto]

Rich,

In your opinion which is the harder hole at Deal, the tenth or the twelfth?

It looks to me like the twelfth green has banks on both sides to form the puchbowl but it's a long hole with all kinds of business going on in the fairway, correct?

The tenth is a much shorter hole but only has the right half of the punchbowl. That darned little chasm is on the left to gather everything in.

I'd guess that you probably had a wedge of some kind into the tenth green (unless the wind dictates otherwise) whereas I've no idea how you'd actually play the twelfth from tee to green but that's got to be some kind of long club approach, no?

[EDIT] Actually, looking closer at the pictures I don't think the slope behind and right of the tenth green will feed a ball onto the putting surface after all. Still, my main question is to ask just how much easier the punchbowl at the twelfth green makes the hole.

[ForkaB]

Brent

The 10th is a pussycat.  Just make sure you go right on your drive.

Rich

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find any feature that allows for the ball to feed adds interest and excitement to the golf shot. Many of the natural green sites in the UK are set in dunes where cutting all the way up the sides is not practical from a maintenance viewpoint. some make for punch bowl type situations, but most do not.

[Noel Freeman]

Ah Deal.. My golfing daydreams have been awaken-ed..

The 12th green is definitely not a punchbowl, it is more of a horseshoe or a U.. I'd rather call them sidewalls where Braid--this is a Braid hole sunk the green b/t two sand moguls.. The genius is in using them to reach back pins with a running draw or cut.. The 12th features the most pedestrian drive at Deal and is over the flattest terrain, yet there is never an indifferent shot at Deal followed by another indifferent shot--a mark of greatness.  The approach is always fun because of the green..


The 3rd is the bathtub or true punchbowl green at Deal.




BTW, Golf's most beloved character thinks Deal is in the world Top 50.. too bad his colleagues at Golf don't agree!

[Brent Hutto]

So do the sidewalls at the twelfth make the hole play easier overall? How about the bathtub at the third?

The only hole in my limited experience that comes to mind as similar to the twelfth at Deal is the fourth at Spyglass Hill. Is that at all an apt analogy?

[Noel Freeman]

The sidewalls definitely assist if you can utilize them with the correct angle. they obviously can rescue you from a poor drive too.  The hole is long and into the wind more often that knot (sic)..  Given that, it requires a low running shot and the ability to execute it and your reward is cozying up to the hole.  Perfect strategic golf if you utilize what Braid gave you..

I've played the 4th at Spyglass a few times and would not liken it to any hole except #12 at Pine Valley.. I see what you were going for given the pinched in nature of that green but the one at Deal is much longer and wider..

[john_stiles]

Mike,

I played Enniscrone once and hit the 1st.  The ball just settled close to the pitch mark.  Do not remember the green being 'much' of a punchbowl. I am speaking of the green contours.  

Yes, the ball could fall from the sides of the dunes, the bowl effect, but not very easily at Enniscrone.  

The dell at Lahinch has perhaps a better 'punchbowl setting' as the sides will feed the ball down.  However the green contours will not feed the ball.  See the recent Lahinch thread, and from my 2005 photo, you can see that they are mowing the hillsides up about as far as practical.  The hillsides were much steeper at Dell than 1st at Enniscrone, and the grass was maintained lower at the Dell than 1st at Enniscrone (when I played in 2005).

Guess I think as much about the green contours when thinking of a punchbowl as the immediate surrounds.

Silva's punchbowl at Black Creek is quite dramatic. Quite fun to play, and even more fun to look back from the next tee and watch shots roll out.  The green and the immediate surrounds have a punchbowl effect at Black Creek.  

Maintenance meld is excellent at Black Creek including the punchbowl hole.

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