Montour Heights CC (Dye) UPDATED w/ Pics

[Ryan Farrow]

My brother recently joined Montour Heights a few weeks ago. He got an incredible deal and some low monthly dues. I get back to Pittsburgh in a couple of days and was wondering if anyone has played there. My brother loves the course but when he hears a name like Pete Dye he always has good things to say. I will be playing it the day after I get back and will provide some comments and pictures when that takes place. I just have no idea what to expect after playing one awful public course after the next in the Pittsburgh Area.

Link to the course tour (pictures):

https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourID=6278&CFID=721168&CFTOKEN=32414040

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

Will be interested to see your comments on the course.

I saw it only once, on a tour with P.B. Dye early in construction.  The four holes across the road, which hadn't been cleared yet, looked unbelievably severe.

[JohnV]

There are a few verrrrrrry steep holes.  In particular the 14th which is a par 5 that goes straight uphill, which is one of the holes Tom mentioned.  Also the 6th which goes straight downhill and the 8th which comes straight back up.

I haven't played it, but I have worked a couple of college events there.  The kids are usually pretty tired after walking.

A couple of photos 14:

[Ryan Farrow]

It seems like many Pittsburgh area courses are victims of steep sites. Just off the top of my head Chartiers CC(incredibly tough to walk), Grand View, Westwood, North Park, Birdsfoot and even Cranberry Highlands(favorite Public course) has some very severe terrain which was worked around quite nicely in that instance. Is this a reason why so many local courses are unsuccessful? The most common feature I see are architects designing a par 3 over the valley and forcing most players to hit 3 irons or woods just to carry. I think potentially good designs and layouts were lost due to the topography.

[George Pazin]

Hi Ryan -

I didn't realize you were a Burgh guy. Let me know if you ever want to grab a beer when you get home.

You raise some interesting points, ones that I've mentioned peripherally in the past, mostly in regards to Oakmont. Fox Chapel has wonderful gentle terrain, unlike many courses in western PA, but Oakmont has the very similar, relatively severe, topography you find all over western PA. And yet, there is only one Oakmont.

I'm a little confused by your statement that most local courses are unsuccessful. Do you mean financially? Do you mean they aren't highly rated in the various rankings? Or is that just your our opinion as to the level of architecture?

Certainly most of the courses you mention see a lot of play. My home course, North Park, is pretty crowded for basically the entire summer. I know they can be hard walks (though I don't think NP is very hard, due to the very short green to tee walks, actually, I think it's a great walk, couldn't be much more natural).

I think Oakmont is special because it really uses its severe terrain uniquely. I can't think of another course that uses a hillside as effectively as Oakmont with its incredible 1st, 9th, 10th & 12th.

[Ryan Farrow]

George, are you promoting underage drinking or is it ok since I go to ASU? I usually play NP a few times a year so maybe we can meet up sometime this summer.

As far as my comment of the courses being unsuccessful I am speaking in terms of architecture. I think in some cases the topography is so severe that holes are being designed just to be playable and fair while everything else that makes a hole great is just an afterthought. Just how severe is Oakmont’s property? Now that I think about it Oakmont East has some relatively steep holes so I am guessing it may be pretty similar next door.

[gookin]

Great new pro here, Alex Childs. He will do a great job.  Really knows the golf swing.

[JohnV]

Ryan, from what I've seen, Oakmont East has more severe property than Oakmont CC.

There is plenty of steep terrain around here.  Alcoma, Totteridge, Nemacolin CC,  Sunnehanna, Hannastown and many others of all quality levels are pretty tough climbs in places.

[George Pazin]

Whoops, didn't realize you were that young....

Oakmont East is a good bit more severe than Oakmont (West? ). But I'm still amazed at how effectively Oakmont uses its topography. The hilltop green on #3 is incredible, the hillside green on #6 is incredible, the uphill par 3 13th is amazing, etc. Each time I see Oakmont I marvel at the Fownes ability to see what others didn't - and don't, for the most part.

[Ryan Farrow]

Since I got back from school Friday night it has rained pretty much non-stop since I got home. My brother and I finally decided to go out today. When we arrived at the course it was raining so we waited about 30 minutes.....it was still raining, but it eventually slowed up. By the 3rd hole it stopped and I actually saw the sun in Pittsburgh by the 7th hole.

So back to the golf course; I heard that the course was primarily a P.B. Dye design. With that in my mind I did recognize some differences from the other Dye courses I have already played (Asu Karsten, Rum Pointe, and Mystic Rock). The course was really not all that tough. I don’t know if this was some way of P.B. separating himself from Pete or just a mere coincidence. Most of the water was not in play where some minor adjustments could have made a couple of the holes much more challenging and penal.

 I wish I had some pictures of the bunkers, I would say half of them looked like the grounds crew brought out a bunch of shovels and dug a 6 inch hole and filled it with sand. At times the bunkers were quite laughable. I didn’t notice too many fairway bunkers at driving distances either, or it might be that I was only in one trap all day. As far as the severe topography goes I think most of it was managed pretty well. The uphill holes were enjoyable except for the par 5 on the “other” side of the road. The hole should have been a par 4 in my opinion. The approach shot was very uncomfortable and the next hole was a par 5 anyways. The green should have been in the place of a lay-up shelf 30 feet below the current green. As far as the greens go some of them had some nice undulations and others were just complete letdowns on otherwise very interesting holes.

Just my two cents, I think I spent more time fighting my swing than analyzing the architecture. Maybe I should just stop trying to play?

[Ryan Farrow]

Here are some pictures that I have finally gotten around to post.





#1 green, note the back bunker, this is what im talking about with these things.





#3, my favorite hole on the course. Right side is the safe play but you are penalized with a blind shot into the green. The leftside if guarded by bunkers If you dare to bite off the dogleg. A few of the trees need chopped down  





Looking back on #6. A 6 iron will run all the way down the hillside and leave you with a wedge into an elevated green.





#7 par 3. water is below the hole and just out of the picture. It  is far from being in play, definately a drainage pond for number 6. And I would like to nominate this hole as the "who decided to put a cart path there hole!"





A look on the back 4 holes of the property in particular #14.





Drop shot par 3.





A look comming back up 14.





The overused Cape Hole with fake lake  





Beautifully landscaped tee shot on #17.





And the final hole, a brutal par 4.

[Mike_Young]

Have never played the course but have a friend that was the pro there for a while.  John Mazza...very good player and won a few events up that way.....good guy....

[Ron Farris]

For a Dye course, even a PB Dye course, there sure seems to be a disregard for cart path routing.  Maybe it was the angle of the photos, but when I worked with the Dyes there was an incredible effort to make the cart paths as inconspicuous as possible.  Nonetheless, if it is fun to play then great job!

[Craig Sweet]

It would be fun to skateboard on those cart paths!

[Bill_Yates]

Does anyone remember the original Montour Heights C.C. course?  

I was a junior member through high school and college and remember playing H. S. matches on the course when it only had 9 holes that were designed by Emil Loeffler from Oakmont.  I believe it was in the 60's when they added a nice back nine and redesigned several holes on the front.  The result was that the character of the course changed hole by hole.  While the terrain was hilly, I wouldn't call any of the holes severe.  And like all Pittsburgh area courses, Montour Heights had fantastic greens.

[James Edwards]

Ryan,

Looks majorly hilly?

[Ryan Farrow]

James, I would say 5-6 holes are severe and only a few are relatively flat. There are some long walks on the course and a few of them are backwards. They don't allow walking untill after 5-6 I think.

[George Pazin]

James, I can't comment on Montour specifically, but those photos look very much like a lot of western PA courses, topography-wise. If you grow up in this area, you definitely learn to make uphill, downhill and sidehill adjustments!

Ryan, how much longer are you in town?

[Ryan Farrow]

George I ment to send you a message a few days ago. I will be leaving Sunday the 13th where I will be making my 2,000 + mile journey back to Arizona. I would like to get together sometime this weekend if possible or later in the evening around 4 ish.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Totally ignorant question: what's the design intent of putting the apron on #7 front left instead of front right?

How does either side affect:
deceptiveness of hole?
tendency of better golfer and higher handicap golfer to play the hole? (I'm thinking the slope of the hill plus the left apron all but scream at the duffer to hit a slice!)

I had never thought about this much before looking at that slope line, then comparing it to the green and apron...

It seems to me a left apron creates a convergence of the green towards the back slope, whereas a right apron could really confuse the golfer into thinking the green slope followed the back slope. (heh heh heh)

Thanks,
Mark

[Ryan Farrow]

Mark, to be honest I didn't even notice the apron when playing the hole. In person it seems the hole plays dead on. Maybe it’s just the angle of the picture but I didn’t think once of trying to run one on. Plus I’m a lefty and play a fade so it wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense for me. I think it would be more effective if the tees were situated further left and hole played a bit longer. If the apron was on the right the tees would need to be about 50 yards right of where they are now for a right side apron to get any use other than visual deception.