[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I've been thinking about optimal green speeds for quite some time.  Quite a few GCA's desire a rollback to earlier times as far as geen speeds are concerned.  This is simply idealistic malarky.  Worse, though usually a disaster, some greens have become incapable of multiple pin positions at speeds over 10 on the stipmeter.  The problem is that there is always a desire to reduce the level of luck in the outcome of golf shots.  The area where luck can be minimalized most significantly is on the green.  Through highly evolved greenskeeping practices, a well struck putt has a very good chance of holding its line and ending up in the hole.   It is nearly impossible of abandon the advances of modern greenskeeping and return of slow and bumpy inconsistant greens of the past.  Who would like to drive on an autobahn in a 1975 Datson when you could drive an AMG 55?  The main question---How many people actually putt out?   On Long Island, I constantly witness rounds scored with many given putts that I would sweat over. It is well known that pace of play is so important at GCGC that very rarely does anyone putt something under 6 feet--the Garden City Gimmie.  For years I've heard the expression--That's good---well its good at the Men's club."  What does green speed over 10 mean to anyone who doesn't have to make a 2ft. putt with 6 inches of break---not to mention the longer putts!  If you have to make all your putts, then you probably are going to want a consistent smooth putting surface!

[Craig Sweet]

There is no need for "bumpy" greens that stimp at 9 or 9.5 or 10....

You are pushing your luck when you consistantly have greens rolling above 11.5....pushing your luck that you won't run into disease/drought/etc.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I agree it can get problematic when speeds get to 11+.  However, greens that stimp at 8 do not roll even remotely as well as ones that stimp at 10.  Obviously, there are times when the weather dictates that greens need to be slower--this should not be the norm.   My point is that people who are interested in rolling back green speeds probably do not putt out when playing a stipulated round of golf.  

[ForkaB]

It is well known that pace of play is so important at GCGC that very rarely does anyone putt something under 6 feet--the Garden City Gimmie.  For years I've heard the expression--That's good---well its good at the Men's club."  

Now we know why there are so many low handicap players at GCGC.......

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:

Maybe it's just coincidence, but Garden City Golf Club lost most of their greens last summer.  Or perhaps they were a bit stressed out from years of fast living.

[Brent Hutto]

Robert:

Garden City Golf Club lost most of their greens last summer.  

Where'd they go?

Probably some place where the members putt out 5-footers. It's gotta be hard being green and getting no respect...

[jeffwarne]

Robert,
Hope you're doing well.
You're telling me greens that run at 8 have to be bumpier than greens at 10?-That makes no sense.

many Bermuda/rye/poa triv greens are are 7-9 in the south in the winter-many are quite smooth.
It's not the slowness that makes them bumpy.
Nor does the speed necessarily make them smooth.

By necessity, a faster green requires the ball to be moving slower,or trickling so it doesn't appear to bounce or "bump",but it simply veers offline without getting airborne.

In fact,nothing is no less fun than a lightning fast, bumpy green(think mossy or poa greens in the northeast in the spring) that puts you at the mercy of the bumps and don't allow you to firm it in. I think most superintendants would tell you that turf would be generally healthier maintained at 8 than 10+.
I personally love the fast greens we have the luxury of playing at the great courses in the northeast, but I think putting would be MORE challenging(for better players) with slower greens which would allow more interesting greens to be preserved and BUILT  and more difficulty available on demand in competitive situations.

We should play Goat Hill on Shelter Island if you want to see slow,smooth greens that you may have to play a foot of break on a 4 footer. The beauty of minimal maintenance and sloped greens.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the Garden City gimme though and I don't see why those of us advocating practical and fun(for higher handicappers) turf conditions at lower speeds are less likely to putt our six footers. I'd also say we'll have less of them due to lag putts not consistently slipping by.

[Brent Hutto]

many Bermuda/rye/poa triv greens are are 7-9 in the south in the winter-many are quite smooth.

Exactly true. In my limited experience, there's no surface on which a typical club golfer can putt better than on a nice firm winter green in the Southeast that's Bermuda overseeded with poa triv and running about 8-8.5 on the Stimp. They tend to be very smooth, less grainy than the summer Bermuda, at that speed you don't necessarily have to hammer the lag putts but you can firm anything inside 4-5 feet and comebackers tend to be shortish.

At a typical course around here (inland South Carolina) you don't see nearly as many 3-putts on those winter poa triv greens as you would on the same course in the summer. Yet the 10-footers are still makable unlike on really slow or bumpy greens. Slow those same greens down to 6-7, especially if they're also wet and soft, and the putting game isn't nearly as much fun.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Putting on slower green speeds have proven to be difficult for the better player. I witness this first hand. At my school in North Carolina we play on Bermuda greens that are ok, but we just don't have the money to keep them like everyone would like them to be, but they are improving every single year thanks to a new keeper. So they run around 7-8 typically. When golf tryouts come around you will see scores over par and well over par for the most part. The top 12 players to be taken on the team are always over par. The record was set this past fall semester at 4 over par for 4 days.

What I am trying to get at is, 4 over par for the 4 days would never had happened in the past due to the poor green speeds. Since they have improved the scores continue to drop.  288 made it this past fall, lowest in team history.

*These scores represent the number 1 Division III golf program in the country.

[Tom Huckaby]

RMD:

I don't recall anyone in here calling for slower green speeds just for the sake of slowing things down... the argument is twofold:

1) On wildly contoured greens, the speed was never intended to be all that fast, and the effect of making them too fast is that goofy golf results with the difficult pin positions or they can only use the small flat parts they can find; and

2) With this in mind, very few NEW heavily contoured greens get built - you have fast flat greens - and those are OK, but kinda boring in excess.

In any case, smooth is good, bumpy is bad, for sure.  And again, the argument is against only EXTREME speed, which causes the effects above... Think 12 plus... The example I always use is Pasatiempo.  The greens there seem to be perfect at 8-9, and hell yes they can be very smooth at that speed.  The problem is they too often jack them up over 10-11, and goofy golf/boring pin positions result.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

The Garden City Gimmee is either a myth or a well kept secret.

If anything, golf and tradition remain strong at GCGC.
I haven't seen anyone concede 6 footers at GCGC.
If anything, there's a tendency to "hole out"

I do agree with your take on the elimination of luck, vis a vis putting surfaces.

But, with rare exception, GCGC's greens are absent substantive contour, in favor of slope.

Tom Doak,

The greens at GCGC have gotten slower, not faster over the years since Bobby Ranum left.

It is true that they were sometimes preped beyond prudence for a few tournaments, but, as an overall trend, they've slowed down since Bobby's departure.

I suspect unusual weather and other factors conspired to tax the greens beyond sustainance.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Perhaps it is regional, but I stand by the pace of 10 for metro-NY and the Northeast.  I agree that Pasatiempo at anything over 10 would reduce the the pin positions to only a couple of positions per hole.  And there are quite a few courses in metro-NY that wear out the few reasonable pinable spots in their quest to maintain 11+ on a daily basis.  I really think GCGC was a victim of poor practices in the recent past.  Accross the train tracks, Cherry Valley was in immaculate shape all summer and the greens were jacked up to 12 in mid-Sept.  Incidentally, Cherry Valley's greens are unreal already--it is a slow start to the season on Long Island.

[RE Blanks]

If the Garden City members are so concerned about pace of play why don't they just play 9 or install a continuous cart path.  Is shirtless play still allowed?

[Doug Siebert]

Robert,

There's no reason greens can't be every bit as true rolling very slow as when very fast.  The amount of maintenance required to keep greens healthy at high speeds also keep them truer.  Most courses that run their greens at 7 probably spend a small fraction of what courses that run them at 11 spend, and probably use much older and poorly maintained mowers with duller blades, etc.  Most players want faster greens (many because they incorrectly relate faster with truer) so courses that can get them faster do, those that can't are almost always limited by budget and thus their slower greens are also less true.

I'd rather play greens at 11 than 7 myself so I'm not arguing against your main point, but on rare occasions I have been treated to slow greens that roll perfectly true (try Scotland and Ireland) and have also been cursed with greens rolling extremely fast that weren't true at all.  Talk about torture, you might as well not even bother to line up downhill putts on such greens since rolling so slowly it will take an essentially random path down towards the hole!

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