Tilly at the Cascades

[Phil_the_Author]

On the Philmont thread, Mark Fine mentioned that I had recently come across an intriguing advertisement of Tillinghast's where he laid claim to having designed the Cacscades Course at Hot Springs.

He wrote, "As you know... researchers like Phil Young have uncovered very interesting and very controversial things.  Look at the old advertisements and letters he found about Tillinghast claiming credit for The Cascades.  Tillie must have tried to take credit for a reason but who knows why.  More research is required to understand it."

Wayne responded, mentioning that, "As for Tillinghast and Cascades, that is a mystery.  The only connection we have seen is that he came to look at the property and suggested it wasn't suited for a golf course.  Supposedly Raynor did as well.  Peter Lees, an associate of Tillinghast, was working on another course, the Goat Course, but that was shut down after many difficulties."

I hadn't felt ready to post anything on this as I believed that there wasn't enough information available yet to do anything more than create wild speculation. Now that it's out... I guess we can all have  some fun and maybe learn some things from it as well.

What I found... on p.5 of the November 1931 issue of Golf Illustrated is an advertisement in which Tilly proudly states, "A Remarkable Achievement. The following is a list of National Championships played on courses, all of which were designed by A.W. Tillinghast..."

It then lists, "1928 Women's National Championship, Cascades Course, Hot Springs, Va."

Note, this states that he "designed" the course. Why would he lay claim to this? Why do we not find any place in following issues where it was either disputed or a correction made? (e.g. - In the March 1928 issue of Golf Illustrated, a retraction is made by the "Miniature Golf Courses of America" who had advertised in the February 1928 issue that both "Jerome K. Travers and Mr. William Reekie were illadvisedly used in an advertisement...")

My curiosity was quite piqued and I emailed both Wayne & Tom Paul who assured me that it was as I thought, a Flynn course. In an attempt to understand why Tilly would avdertise himself this way, I called Rand Jerris who believed that it was a mistake made by either the advertising agency or Tilly's office staff. After somke thought, I felt (and still do) that this couldn't be the explanation as Tilly had no office staff other than himself in 1931 (he was working out of his basement boiler room at the time and had no one else) and since he was the current Editor of Golf Illustrated he most likely would have seen and approved of the advertisement.

No, for some reason he firmly believed that he had designed the course.

I next contacted the Executive Director of the Bath County Historical Society who emailed me following my query for any information.

She remembered that, "somewhere, there was an article about building the Cascades Course..." in a local newspaper. After a search, she wrote that, "I found it in the March 1932 edition. "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs."

Shje atated that, "Tillinghast is mentioned, altho his first name is not noted. Here is that passage: (referring to Peter Lees, "who had a great reputation as an authority on
the growing of grasses. "Mr. Lees considered himself something of a golf architect and he realized that the directors desired an additional course badly. During one of his visits here, he walked over the territory ... The Chief Engineer of the Virginia Hot Springs company accompanied Lees, and they ... determined distances by counting paces.

"After this layout was on paper, it looked very good.

"Following this casual survey Tillinghast, the golf architect in
Philadelphia, came to Hot Springs as a specialist and gave his approval of the layout. Something like $40,000 or $50,000 was then spent clearing the area and preparing for seeding."

This, of course, is startling information as both Tom & Wayne had told me that their research showed that Tillinghast had said that after examination of the property that a course could not be built on the site. This article from 1932 in the local paper though says that a course was actually not only planned but, "$40,000 or $50,000 was then spent clearing the area and preparing for seeding."

That would correspond to something like $5-8,000,000 dollars in todays money and close to what it might cost to build a course at that time.

A layout was put on paper, a course staked, land cleared and it was ready for seeding... so what happened to this course?

We know that Flynn came to the site shortly thereafter. The same article states that, "Through a fortutious chain of
circumstances Mr. William J. Flynn, of Philadelphia, was induced to visit Hot Springs to pass on the availability of the property.
    "It was a very hot day in July when Mr. Flynn arrived. ... The surveying party tramped about the place for one whole day and part of another. Mr. Flynn refused to make comment.
    "After the conclusion of the visit to the Cascades, Mr. Flynn announced that he had located 20 putting greens around which he could lay out an eighteen-hole course."

According to this article, Flynn was on-site for only a day & a half, yet we know of other courses where other architects, including Tillinghast himself, spent as little as a day on a virgin site and left with it staked out and a rudimentary drawing left for local engineers to prepare a site plane with elevations to be sent to him for approval.

So, speculations:

1- Flynn used the Tillinghast/Lees layout and just finished it, making minor changes and leaving us an "as-built" drawing.
2- Flynn used parts of the Tillinghasty/Lees layout and redesigned new holes after they procured the Rubino site.
3- Flynn ripped up what Tillinghast/Leees layout and started from scratch.
4- Tillinghast/Lees never did this work nor drew a plan or spent $40-50,000. The 1932 article titled, "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs." was mistaken.
5-

I want to make it perfectly clear that I have not ever made any claim either publicly or in private conversation that Tillinghast designed the Cacscades Course. That it is possible that he did enough work that he could believe that Flynn possibly renovated his original design is conclusable but not provable.

There are many questions that this information brings to mind and that need answering before anyone can claim that Flynn didn't design the Cascades.

Careful research is needed. I am currently awaiting copies of the newspaper articles mentioned to me and quoted from by the Executive Director of Bath County Historical Society. As soon as I receive them I will follow up with a posting of the entire article's contents.

Let the fun begin...  

[Mark_Fine]

This is the point I was trying to make on that Philmont thread.  You have some good researchers studying the history of these courses and even they still can't prove for certain who did what.  How many clubs have members that are willing to take this kind of time?  Not too many.  That is why I believe more and more of these types of "who designed it" or "who built it" uncertainties will continue to unfold.  

Maybe this will make the guys at Philmont feel a little better that they are not the only course under question.  In both cases, more research is required to see the extent of the various architect's involvement.

[wsmorrison]

Tillinghast did NOT design nor did he have anything at all to do with the Cascades Golf Course as it was built.  

Phil has not put forth anything new to alter this FACT.  In fact, you confuse one course (Goat) for another (Cascades) in your attempt to prove the advertisement right while providing small bits of out of context information in a way that is misguided or worse.

Given that you haven't bothered to look at any of the extensive quantity and quality of materials that we have despite our willingness to share them with you, I feel you have done a less than thorough job before making your 4 speculations.  If you do consider our materials, I feel certain that you will quickly come to see the truth.  But if you want to believe an advertisement in a 1931 magazine or 1932 account recalled by a Bath County Historical Society staffer and extrapolate from there....be my guest. You are smashing square pegs into round holes.  It appears you have a theory and are trying to fit biased analysis of your "findings."  

Because there are one or more examples of retractions you assume because there wasn't one after the Tillinghast advertisement that there must be some reason for that?  It would be laughable if it weren't so indicative of folly.  Your speculations are running wild; better catch them.

Mark,

For some reason you choose to give some credibility to Phil's efforts without understanding anything to do with the matter.  I think that is a very poor assumption on your part.  There are no uncertainties except in your mind and in Phil's.  Stop worrying about making the guys at Philmont feel better, you'd think you had an alternative motive.

I'm not going to lay out all the materials we have to substantiate the Flynn attribution at Cascades.  For those making specious claims, come see it for yourself.  You are welcome to do so.  Frankly, I find it tiresome to see the lack of quality research.  It may be fun to hazard guesses if there was only the advertisement to go on, but there is a wealth of information to prove our research, so taking these wild stabs in the dark is a waste of time.

[Bill Gayne]

Wayne, congrats on the recognition you and Tom got in this month's Links magazine for your work at The Homestead.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

      Before this gets out of hand, let’s say we ratchet down the emotional side. When I shared this information with you in private I stated that I was NOT challenging Flynn as architect of the Cascades, and again, when I started this post, I said, “I want to make it perfectly clear that I have not ever made any claim either publicly or in private conversation that Tillinghast designed the Cascades Course. That it is possible that he did enough work that he could believe that Flynn possibly renovated his original design is conclusable but not provable.”

      The first thing you wrote was, “Tillinghast did NOT design nor did he have anything at all to do with the Cascades Golf Course as it was built.” Did I not state that this was entirely possible? I gave a list of 5 “speculations,” #4 was “4- Tillinghast/Lees never did this work nor drew a plan or spent $40-50,000. The 1932 article titled, "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs." was mistaken.”

      You next wrote, “Phil has not put forth anything new to alter this FACT.  In fact, you confuse one course (Goat) for another (Cascades) in your attempt to prove the advertisement right while providing small bits of out of context information in a way that is misguided or worse.”

      It is here that I must take exception with you. I have NOT confused the Goat Course with the Cascades Course; you are the one who brought this possibility up. The magazine advertisement that started this all CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCABLY stated that Tilly designed the CASCADES COURSE, the site of the 1928 WOMEN’S NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. My correspondences to you & Tom on this have been consistent and unwavering, asking HOW could this be that Tilly felt he designed it? Not one time has it been that he DID.

      Next you wrote, “Given that you haven't bothered to look at any of the extensive quantity and quality of materials that we have despite our willingness to share them with you, I feel you have done a less than thorough job before making your 4 speculations.  If you do consider our materials, I feel certain that you will quickly come to see the truth.” From my first email to you & Tom, the both of you have generously offered me the opportunity to see your documents, and I repeat what I said back to you then - I would LOVE to see them. Unfortunately, since I live near Atlanta, unless you send me copies (not something I am asking of you then or now), I need to find myself in your neck of the woods before that can happen.

      Next you wrote, “But if you want to believe an advertisement in a 1931 magazine or 1932 account recalled by a Bath County Historical Society staffer and extrapolate from there....be my guest. You are smashing square pegs into round holes.  It appears you have a theory and are trying to fit biased analysis of your "findings."” In this you are mistaken. I did NOT quote a “recollection [recalled] by a Bath County Historical Society staffer,” I quoted from a partial copy of a LOCAL NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT found in the March 1932 edition of the “Homestead Spectators.” The title of the article is "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs." The person who sent me the information FROM THE HOMESTEAD SPECTATOR is the Executive Director of the Historical Society. Again, I am awaiting a full and complete copy of the article. It will still be about another month as they are in the end of a major renovation of the facility and she is tied up with things until then.

      The information in the article, specifically that “Something like $40,000 or $50,000 was then spent clearing the area and preparing for seeding.” Was new not only to me, but to you & Tom as well.

      One of the things that I learned from you & Tom was that the resort was having things tight from a financial aspect and that they were pressuring Ingalls because of this. That is why this newspaper account brings up REASONABLE QUESTIONS about the project. Some of them are:

1-   What is the source of this information?
2-   Why was this NEVER mentioned in Ingalls’ book?
3-   Why is there NO RETRACTION or CORRECTION to this story in the Homestead Spectator (E.D. says she hasn’t found one as of yet.) I would think that if my local paper wrote something clearly and seriously incorrect about one of, if not the, largest and most important employers in my area that they would be taken to task for it. Why weren’t they?


      You next wrote, “Because there are one or more examples of retractions you assume because there wasn't one after the Tillinghast advertisement that there must be some reason for that?  It would be laughable if it weren't so indicative of folly.  Your speculations are running wild; better catch them.”

      Honestly Wayne, this is insulting and demeaning when I have been nothing but straightforward and honest in ALL of my conversations with you and Tom on this. The questions I ask are REASONABLE and you should be able to see that.

      Folly they are not.

      In continuing on to address Mark, you wrote, “I'm not going to lay out all the materials we have to substantiate the Flynn attribution at Cascades.  For those making specious claims, come see it for yourself.  You are welcome to do so.  Frankly, I find it tiresome to see the lack of quality research.”

      One might suggest that the lack of quality research was done by you in NOT FINDING this clearly locatable newspaper account. All it took for me to do so was an email to the director of the local historical society, something that a person researching the history of an organization might find to be part of a logical research course. I, though, am not even beginning to suggest this.
      Wayne, the information that I have come across is interesting and should certainly be researched, especially as you have told me that your research suggests that Tilly STATED to the resort that a golf course could not be built and yet that is what Flynn did.

      I say lets go find the answers and have fun in doing so.

      By the way, and VERY MUCH for the record, I too have heard great things from people in Hot Springs about the work that you guys did and you should feel deserved pride in having done so.

[wsmorrison]

I reread my post and feel I came across way too hard on you, sorry about that.  Please consider accepting my apology.  I now know you couched the entire theme as being speculative and an interesting mental exercise that should lead to more inspection of materials.  I welcome that and am very confident that the findings will prove us right yet remain open-minded that all is not known and there may be some surprises; however not of the magnitude you postulate.

Yet the fact remains, the advertisement was wrong and not proof of anything.  Given the information to date, there is nothing to conclude that Tillinghast did anything save the advertisement.  But perhaps, according to Mark Fine's theory, since there is no written proof that Tillinghast did not design Cascades, we should make the membership happy and include him.  The more the merrier.

It should come as no surprise that advertisements, especially in that era, were not held to the same standards as today.  I know a modern architect that claims on his CV and website work that he did not do.  While he submitted a plan, it was not accepted nor implemented in any way.  Yet he implies to the world that he worked on the golf course.  I am not pointing a finger at Tillinghast and saying he was guilty of anything.  It was most likely a simple mistake.  

I have seen the account you mention that mentions Lees and Tillinghast.  It refers to the Goat Course and not Cascades.  The Goat Course, because of its severe topography was costing a fortune to build and the ground was full of unpleasant surprises during construction delaying the project and adding significantly to the cost.  Lees or Lees/Tillinghast did not do a comprehensive survey of the site and it turned around and bit them.  During the project a proper survey was done and Ingalls concluded that it would be improper to continue.  This $40k was spent on the Goat Course.  Ingalls cut the losses and the course was not finished.  The redeeming feature of the Goat Course was its proximity to the Homestead.  The Cascades is several miles further down the road.

Flynn never designed a course with anyone else.  We have his preliminary routings, sketches, notes and each of several finished design plans that were implemented over the years.  Photos (ground and aerial) confirm that the course was routed and built exactly according to these plans.  Ingalls mentioned in detail (he may have gotten one date wrong) Flynn's contributions and doesn't discuss other collaborators or predecessors to Flynn at Cascades.  When Flynn began work at the Cascades it was on a raw piece of ground; there was no development.  What looks today, and at completion of construction, a natural golf course was in fact heavily engineered in many ways and over a large portion of the property.  Reading the engineer's report, it is easy to see why others concluded that the work could not be done to provide a quality golf course.  What other interpretation can there be?

"One might suggest that the lack of quality research was done by you in NOT FINDING this clearly locatable newspaper account. All it took for me to do so was an email to the director of the local historical society, something that a person researching the history of an organization might find to be part of a logical research course. I, though, am not even beginning to suggest this."

Rather than contacting the county historian, I thought it better to contact the professional historian at the resort, John Hoover.  He is an excellent and tireless researcher who examined the entire contents of the Bath County Historical Society and the much more voluminous Homestead archives.  I have many of the Homestead Spectators, they are not newspapers but rather newsletters to guests of the hotel.  I have many early ones, including some from 1932 but not the March 1932.  I can get that from John by the end of the week and will do so.

The timeline is important here:

John Hoover determined that Lees was hired in 1919 to provide a second golf course.  He looked at the Rubino property and decided it was not suited for golf.  Lees designs an expansion of the Goat Course (original 9 holes built in 1912) to 18 holes.  In 1920 Tillinghast was hired to review Lees designs for the Goat Course and to take a look at the Rubino property.  Tillinghast concurred with Lees account of the Rubino property and makes minor alterations to Lees plans for the Goat Course.  Steep terrain and large rocks prevent the work at the Goat Course from being completed and it is abandoned to be used by employees in its end state.

It was not until 1923 that the Homestead acquires the Rubino property together with the Thompson farm and 1/4 acre where a sharecropper had a cabin upon the advice of Flynn who declared a great golf course could be built on the site but it would require a lot of engineering and a lot of money.  Ingalls did not blink and it was built by locals according to Flynn's plans.  Flynn came back nearly every year and tweaked the designs at least through 1935.

Do you think that Tillinghast worked on a golf course on land the Homestead did not own?  Do you think if Tillinghast did some work at the Cascades site that 3 years later it would be raw land again?

The information you have come across, and let me say, if I were you I would delve into this as you have, is interesting but only partial.  But our method is to gather as much materials available and then make a conclusion.  You're approach is a more lively and entertaining one.  Given the information we have amassed, it is clear that Tillinghast had nothing at all to do with Cascades.  

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Your comment about "my theory" is not necessary or appreciated.  I was just suggesting a possible solution for Philmont that might be win win for everyone.  Seems the only ideas that are worth considering are your ideas.  If I am not mistaken, doesn't Philmont's tie to Park have something to do with an advertisement as well?  If Philmont turned up the same information on Flynn that Phil found regarding Tillie at The Cascades, what would be the conclusion?

I think all this research is fascinating.  Problem is that some people take it too personal if something is found that doesn't fit their paradigm (or that they just missed).  You can't find everything when you are doing research as there are only so many hours in the day.  It is not a bad thing if you miss something, we all do.  I worked for months trying to figure out who designed Brookside in Pottstown.  We uncovered a tremendous amount of information that was very valuable to the project but it wasn't until Mike Cirba did some of his own investigation to help us that the name of the original architect came out.  I give him all the credit and appreciated his interest in helping with the project.  

Whether Tillie did anything at the Cascades or not remains to be seen.  But from what Phil has uncovered so far, Tillie clearly played some part in the history of the property and that makes for an interesting story.  

[wsmorrison]

My comment about your approach is very serious and required.  You consistantly demonstrate a reverse scientific method on this and the Philmont thread.  It makes no sense and I feel it must be pointed out since you are an expert in the field of classic golf architecture and history.  

We do mention Tillinghast and Lees in the book, exactly as the record shows.  The Homestead is proud that they've had architects like Ross, Tillinghast and Flynn on their property.  Only Ross and Flynn did anything on the ground.

Thanks to Phil, we were able to add the fact that Tillinghast advertised the Cascades as one of his designs.  The overwhelming facts lead to a far different conclusion and is presented in its entirety.  I think Phil should be commended for finding this information and providing it to us.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

No problems buddy...

Now, you mentioned, "John Hoover determined that Lees was hired in 1919 to provide a second golf course.  He looked at the Rubino property and decided it was not suited for golf.  Lees designs an expansion of the Goat Course (original 9 holes built in 1912) to 18 holes.  In 1920 Tillinghast was hired to review Lees designs for the Goat Course and to take a look at the Rubino property.  Tillinghast concurred with Lees account of the Rubino property and makes minor alterations to Lees plans for the Goat Course.  Steep terrain and large rocks prevent the work at the Goat Course from being completed and it is abandoned to be used by employees in its end state."

I thought you had told me that Tilly told the Homestead people that a golf course "could not be built" on the site? On what was $40-50,000 spent. That's a question, not a challenge. That would be about 5+ million in todays dollars, an awful lot of money for just a survey, especially when you consider that Tilly was spending about $70,000 apiece at the same time to build each of the Baltusrol courses.

So you know, I called the Homestead and asked to speak with Mr. Hoover. I was told that he no longer had any ties to the facility. I asked if they might be able to provide me with a way to reach him and was told they could not. I explained the information I was seeking and they never responded. The day after that I contacted the Bath County Historical Society.

[wsmorrison]

Interesting about John Hoover.  I know they moved him to food and beverage manager for a time.  I guess that didn't last.  

Tillinghast told Ingalls that a suitable course could not be built on the Cascades site.  I believe the 40k was spent on the Goat Course site.  The appeal of that site was its proximity to the resort.  The land itself is poor and is now the site of the riding complex.  I've ridden some of those trails...steep is an understatement and Goat Course an apt name.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

What do you think was meant by the phrase in the account where it said that the land was "cleared and prepared for seeding?"

Wouldn't having gotten to that point intimate that the new holes had been routed and laid out with only their seeding left to do?

It is the phrasing of what has been said that has me most intrigued.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

By the way, just yesterday I found proof of a course that tilly designed in the Atlanta area that no one had ever heard of before. I just have a little more digiing to do before I let all know, but what is important here is that in the newspaper account it mentions that among the courses that Tilly designed was "Olympia Fields in Chicago."

I do understand that you can't believe everything you see in print.  

[wsmorrison]

I have to go back and read it in context again, but I am certain that the clearing and seeding was done on the Goat Course.  I have photos of the Cascades prior to construction--it looks like Uncle Jed's farm before he found black gold, Texas tea.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne said:

"Mark, for some reason you choose to give some credibility to Phil's efforts without understanding anything to do with the matter.  I think that is a very poor assumption on your part."

Maybe there was a reason you were not aware of that I gave some credibility to Phil's efforts.  I think Phil just stated part of it.   Just to be clear, I am NOT taking sides nor is Phil.  It is just very interesting.  I know he has more to post but I'm starting to think it might be better discussed in a private forum.    

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

My point about the importance of the clearing and readying for seeding is that it certainly seems to imply a nearly completed course and not one that couldn't be built. If this was an addition to the goat course and it had gotten that far, then why not finish it? Wouldn't there be some sort of paper trail to show that?

By the same token, if the work was done on the land that would become the Cascades Course, why abandon the work and where is the paper trail there?

Also, I had thought that Ingalls never mentioned Tilly or Lees in his book about the place, including the Goat Course, and that he also had been getting pressure from the board of directors about money.

There is an incongruency to the information that needs another clue or two to have it make sense... at least to me.

[wsmorrison]

Good questions, Phil.  Maybe clearing and seeding was only done on a remodeling of the original 9 and not the new 9 that they were having trouble with.

[Phil_the_Author]

Yet they were constantly advertising throughout this entire time period that they had an 18 & 9 hole course open for play? Never a suggestion that the Goat Course was closed for renovations at all.

Of course the ads could have been just automatic for Golf Illustrated, but there were numerous articles and photographs of thecourses at the Homestead throughout the teens & early twenties and never a mention of possible expansion or work on the Goat Course.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

It seems like you've been assuming Peter Lees (and Tillinghast) laid out something that was under construction (to the tune of app $40,000) on the site of the present Cascades course. That would've been virtually impossible since the Homestead Corporation didn't own that property (the Rubino property formerly known as "Little Healing Springs"), nor did they own the Thompson Farm that was what is now #5, 6, 7, 8, 9 at that time. Lees and Tillinghast did something at the Homestead but I think it was much closer to the hotel. Fay Ingals called it 'the unfortunate Peter Lee (sic) experiment.'

That project has been referred to as the Goat course but I guess it's possible that back then it may've been called the Cascades course.

I really have no explanation for Tillinghast's advertisement implying he designed what is the present Cascades Course but it just doesn't seem possible that he could have done something like that at that time for the obvious timeline problem given above as well as the fact that if Tillinghast had anything to do with designing the Cascades course that would make the Homestead's primary principle, Fay Ingals, a complete liar. As we've mentioned before he went into some real detail about Flynn first analyzing that place for a golf course and there was nothing at all that preceded what Flynn did there. This is according to the man who basically owned The Homestead and hired Flynn to design and build The Cascades.

Again, I have no explanation for Tillinghast's advertisement or contention that he designed The Cascades other than perhaps he was thinking of what he and Lees had done farther up the road (Rte 220) or else Tillie was, at that time, a man with some fairly serious problems. Is that possible?

 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You seem to be reading more into what I have stated and reported than what is there.

You wrote, "It seems like you've been assuming Peter Lees (and Tillinghast) laid out something that was under construction (to the tune of app $40,000) on the site of the present Cascades course. That would've been virtually impossible since the Homestead Corporation didn't own that property (the Rubino property formerly known as "Little Healing Springs"), nor did they own the Thompson Farm that was what is now #5, 6, 7, 8, 9 at that time. Lees and Tillinghast did something at the Homestead but I think it was much closer to the hotel."

Now, where did I ever state that they spent $40,000 on the site of the present Cascades Course? I only said that was one possible conclusion.

You wrote, "Lees and Tillinghast did something at the Homestead but I think it was much closer to the hotel. Fay Ingals called it 'the unfortunate Peter Lee (sic) experiment... That project has been referred to as the Goat course but I guess it's possible that back then it may've been called the Cascades course."

Are you referring to the ALREADY existing Goat Course built in 1912 or to a possible addition to it?

Also, the $40-50,000 reportedly spent for work done by Tilly & Lees was written about in the newsletter of the hotel itself, and was in the article titled, "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs."  Are you telling me that THEY were lying? Where did they get their information from if not their own records? Wouldn't this have come from the Ingalls?

You concluded with, "Again, I have no explanation for Tillinghast's advertisement or contention that he designed The Cascades other than perhaps he was thinking of what he and Lees had done farther up the road (Rte 220) or else Tillie was, at that time, a man with some fairly serious problems. Is that possible?"

Why even give the impression that you are casting aspersions upon Tilly for something that may be as simple a thing as several people misreading or not understanding several documents?

Let's face it, some might say that I am making an issue out of something because of my recent Tilly biography and have a vested interest in seeing Tilly being given credit for designing another one of our countries wonderful courses. Then again, others could state that you & Wayne have a vested interest in keeping Flynn ensconced as the architect of record because of your pending Flynn bio and the wonderful work you both did in helping to see the course restored to the original Flynn design.

To any and all who would think that way I say rubbish, balderdash and horsecrap on all who think either.

As I've said repeatedly to yourself and Wayne, I've simply come across a more than interesting conundrum that I am certain has a reasonable explanation, we just haven't found it yet. The questions raised by the information found are reasonable ones to ask and research. That is all that is being done.

When either Wayne or myself are able to get our hands on the Homestead Spectator that was referred to me by the Bath County Historical Society, I am certain that answers will present themselves to many of the questions.



 

[TEPaul]

"Now, where did I ever state that they spent $40,000 on the site of the present Cascades Course? I only said that was one possible conclusion."

Phil:

If we're discussing this issue of Tillinghast and the Cascades course what difference does it make if you stated $40,000 was spent with Lees/Tillinghast on The Cascades golf course site or you said that that was one possible conclusion?

I'm telling you it just isn't a possible conclusion.

The property the Cascades course is on (often known as the "Rubino" property) was owned by J.B. Haggin, a New York stockbroker before The Homestead purchased the property to build The Cascades golf course. (actually the property The Cascades is on is the Rubino property and the Thompson farm).

Fay Ingalls' board (The Homestead) had less than a week to purchase the so-called Rubino property and Ingalls was told by his board that they would consider buying the land if an architect could pass on its suitability. Flynn came down there in a day and passed on the suitibility of the property in a single day. Fay Ingalls wrote about that visit of Flynn's in some real detail.

So Phil, if The Homestead Corporation did not own that land until a few days after Flynn passed on its suitability how in the world could it be a possible conclusion that Lees and Tillinghast did something on that land that would've cost The Homestead $40,000?

The Homestead apparently did pay Lees and/or Tillinghast something like that sum of money to do a golf course (Ingalls referred to that project as 'the unfortunate Peter Lee (sic) experiment') but it was not the same land the Cascades golf course is on. We believe the land Lees and/or Tillingnhast worked on was about 2-3 miles up Rte 220 from The Cascades Course and quite near The Homestead Hotel.

[TEPaul]

"As I've said repeatedly to yourself and Wayne, I've simply come across a more than interesting conundrum that I am certain has a reasonable explanation, we just haven't found it yet. The questions raised by the information found are reasonable ones to ask and research. That is all that is being done."

Phil:

The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that either Tillinghast was mistaken for some reason about what was being referred to as The Cascades course or The Homestead Spectator's reporting about the developement of the Cascades course was incorrect or simply misinterpreted by some on here to be The Cascades course. There seems to be little question that Lees and/or Tillinghast did to golf architectural work for The Homestead just that it was not on the site of the present Upper Cascades golf course's site.

If for some odd reason Lees and/or Tillinghast had done architectural work on the site that is now The Cascades course then The Homestead's owner, Fay Ingalls, was telling a complete fabrication in that part of his book on The Homestead that dealt with the development of The Cascades golf course.

Why would Ingalls tell a complete lie like that and how in the world could he have expected to get away with something like that?

The truth is, Phil, that Lees and/or Tillinghast did do golf architectural work for The Homestead Corporation but as Ingalls explained it was not work done on the site that is now The Cascades golf course. Ingalls explained in detail how Flynn passed on the suitability of the property in a single day which was followed a few days later by the purchase of the property by The Homestead Corporation from J.B. Haggin of New York which was followed by a Flynn design, the complete drawings from Flynn which we have, which was followed in a little over a year by a golf course that completely matched Flynn's detailed architectural drawings.

I don't know what to make of that Tillinghast advertisement but I fail to see why anyone needs to make much of it when we have all this detailed evidence from the owner of The Homestead of how the Cascades course came to be developed with William Flynn as its architect.

I think it's about time you just look at everything we have on this course from Ingalls and Flynn and after having done that you still think this Tillinghast advertisement needs to be investigated as to whether it suggests that Tillinghast had something to do with the desgin of The Upper Cascades course, then Phil, honestly, I just don't know what to say to you.

Again, I'd prefer not to speculate on this advertisement of Tillinghast's because the evidence Flynn designed The Cascades is just about as comprehensive and conclusive as I've ever seen on a golf course of that era. How many golf courses of that era have complete hole by hole drawings that completely match the way the course was built as well as a complete chapter by the owner of the course explaining in detail how it came to be and who designed and built it?  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Again, I have no doubts that you & Wayne are correct in the conclusions drawn through your research that Flynn did the course. I don't expect to find some torn old plan hidden away in a drawer that shows the Cascades course drawn by Tilly.

I also am not trying to create an issue based upon a single advertisement as that is not what has driven me to ask some questions and see where the path leads, although it did cause me to ask the first one that led me to emailing you & Wayne.

I am extremely curious as to why the resort itself put out a document that staed that a tremendous amount of money was spent by two men to lay-out and design a golf course, excavate land and get it to the poiint of seeding in an article titled, "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs."  That the pieces of the article sent to me intimate that something major took place involving these 2 men is quite clear. The title MIGHT intimate an involvement in the Cascades Course itself, that is a very easy conclusion to draw. Still, the title says it is also about "the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs." That alone allows that it might be refering to another project than the Cascades.

Whatever it is refering to will probably be cleared up when a copy of the entire article can be found. To not pursue or ask questions or to say that the asking of them are unreasonable because of the information you have in your possession and that my simply seeing and examining them for myself would make a change in my desire to question is quite incorrect.

It is obvious that you don't have the information there. For example, in an email you guys stated that you had seen all the bills for the project and that no where was anything paid to Tilly or Lees. Fine, I can accept that, yet someone gave them $40-50,000 and I don't think they did so in cash, and that someone within the organization knew about it. That is a tremendous sum of money at that time and especially as you educated me about Ingalls problem with the Board over finances at some point, wouldn't there be records that show what this money was actually spent on? I will also admit that it might simply be the person who wrote the article was mistaken.

In any case, the information sent clearly calls for question, ordinary and non-judgmental ones, to be asked and answered.
That is all I'm doing. I would love to learn of new places, courses and golf holes that Tilly designed; who wouldn't? As some know I have just discovered records of a major course in Atlanta that Tilly designed, including photographs, the date the construction began (Oct. 1928) and then the on-line archives end in 1929. What makes this so fascinating are the people involved, the location (a course exists on the exact site), and what they were trying to build.

Yet the same newspaper accounts that give all of this information list Olympia Fields as a course that Tilly designed and again as one of two courses, the other being Baltusrol, where their champion Bobby Jones walked away from in defeat. Now obviously that isn't true, and the fact that it is in an account found in a reputable newspaper makes it an interesting and obvious mistake and not worth any investigation whatsoever.

But that is not the case here. What was written and advertised were in formats that create questions that do need answering.

Finally, you know that I would LOVE to come and see your hoard of Flynn stuff. Alpharetta isn't around the corner from you guys and so it will have to wait until I am up north again. How about if I load my car with some of the redneck brands of beer they have down here and we all sit and laugh through this together then?

[TEPaul]

"I am extremely curious as to why the resort itself put out a document that staed that a tremendous amount of money was spent by two men to lay-out and design a golf course, excavate land and get it to the poiint of seeding in an article titled, "The Origin of the Cascades Course... and the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs."  That the pieces of the article sent to me intimate that something major took place involving these 2 men is quite clear. The title MIGHT intimate an involvement in the Cascades Course itself, that is a very easy conclusion to draw. Still, the title says it is also about "the Development of Golf in Virginia Hot Springs." That alone allows that it might be refering to another project than the Cascades."

Phil:

I believe we went over that before on both this thread and the first time you brought up this Tillie advertisement a couple of months ago.

In my opinion, when the name "Cascades" is mentioned, even down there, I'm not too sure many agree what exactly that refers to. I know I've never been all that sure even after John Hoover explained it to me. It could be something as specific as that area just above #6 or the whole watercourse area from the Cascades golf course down to the Hotel which is a couple of miles. Even the course about five miles in the other direction from the hotel that's called the Lower Cascades is confusing when the term "Cascades" is used in reference to The Homestead's courses.

So when people even down there refer to the "Cascades" they could've been talking about that area that Lees and Tillie worked on which as I told you is about 2 miles from the Cascades course of Flynn's.

So that could explain why your Bath Co source or the Spectator used the term Cascades course. It may even explain why Tillie used it. Furthermore according to Ingalls The Homestead was looking to do a second course for some years due to overcrowding on the original Homestead course and that was probably why Lees and Tillinghast's effort preceded Flynn's.

[TEPaul]

"It is obvious that you don't have the information there."

Phil:

The extent of the material available that Flynn designed The Cascades, the timelines involved here, the detailed chronicle of the owner etc is so comprehensive and conclusive that I really don't think Wayne or I needed to go searching for some shred of evidence somewhere about people who may've been mistaken about The Cascades course for some reason.

One more time----we are not denying that Lees and Tillinghast did golf architecture for The Homestead----we know they did. All we're saying is it's virtually impossible that they could've done anything on the property that is The Cascades for app $40,000 including clearing, designing, building and seeding (none of which is being disputed) BEFORE THE HOMSTEAD OWNED THAT LAND. At the time Lees and Tillie worked at The Homstead which preceded Flynn and the purchase of the property that The Cascades is on, The Homestead did own the land Lees and Tillie worked on.

I'm not sure at this point why you don't understand that.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You wrote, "All we're saying is it's virtually impossible that they could've done anything on the property that is The Cascades for app $40,000 including clearing, designing, building and seeding (none of which is not being disputed either) BEFORE THE HOMSTEAD OWNED THAT LAND. At the time Lees and Tillie worked at The Homstead which preceded Flynn and the purchase of the property that The Cascades is on, The Homestead did own the land Lees and Tillie worked on... I'm not sure at this point why you don't understand that."

There is a very easy answer for it and both you and Wayne have stated it. Yes, you've told me that, "That would've been virtually impossible since the Homestead Corporation didn't own that property (the Rubino property formerly known as "Little Healing Springs"), nor did they own the Thompson Farm that was what is now #5, 6, 7, 8, 9 at that time." But unless I have completely misunderstood what you've both written, and I recognize that might be so, that is not THE ENTIRE PROPERTY that the Cascades course is built upon! They did own what would appear to be atleast half of the property that the course would be built upon.

That is why I am also questioning. Still, the very bottom line is that there are several pieces of information that state that work was done by Tilly & Lees on the Cascades course. I am simply asking how that could be