[Chris Moore]

What makes an Eden hole and Eden Hole?

[Mike Erdmann]

This from George Bahto's feature interview: ". . . the 'Eden' hole, fashioned after the 11th at St. Andrews (A.K.A. High Hole-In), whose severely sloping back-to- front putting surface remains one of the most fearsome in golf. Original Macdonald/Raynor/Banks versions usually present teardrop shaped greens, falling in a yardage range between 160 to 175 yards. Aesthetically, their Eden holes have some of the most picturesque greenside bunkering on the course. Pinched in front by a representation of 'Strath's' pot bunker on the right and 'Hill' bunker on the left, Macdonald always installed an 'Eden' bunker behind the green representing the shoreline of the Eden River behind St. Andrews' 11th green. Strath's bunker, of course, is named for the great Davie Strath and his many unsuccessful bouts with this pit. Greenside left we find Hill bunker, so called because its cape creates a downhill slope in the putting surface. Most renditions include a 'Shelley' (or 'Cockleshell') bunker short right of the green. There are so many fine Eden holes that its difficult to identify the best one. However, there is a strong consensus that the 11th at Fishers Island, framed by Long Island Sound in the background, may be as good as it gets. Macdonald felt there should be an intimidating hazard fronting the Eden hole because at the turn of the century golfers sometimes played short of the hole (even using putters) and chipped on to avoid disaster. In addition, a topped ball was not punished. At the National Golf Links, Macdonald placed the 13th Eden green on the far side of a stretch of water to combat this.

[cary lichtenstein]

Any pictures? aerials? drawings?

[TEPaul]

The Eden hole copies in America by Macdonald/Raynor/Banks seem to be a curious lot in the entire collection of their so-called "copy" holes (Redan, Road, Alps, Biarritz, Long, Short, Knoll etc.).

Some think one necessity of the Eden is a dramatic backdrop hopefully of water (mimicking the Eden River).

In that sense there's no question Fisher's Eden hole is the best I've seen that way. However, I never felt the other arrangements of that Eden hole, or any others in America I've seen were quite so good as NGLA's Eden hole (which has virtually no rear feature alternative for the Eden River).

I was in Long Island last week and the Eden holes of both Piping Rock (#11) and The Creek (#4) are remarkably bland---for Eden holes. It would perhaps even have to be pointed out to an accomplished golf architecture analyst that both of those even were Eden holes.

They are not bad golf holes, mind you, just that they don't seem very representative of the primary characteristics of an Eden hole.

It may be at The Creek that at least the Strath bunker on the Eden hole will be made more meaningful in the sense of effectiveness and recoverability difficulty. That would be a start toward making it a more effective and representative Eden Hole.

[Mike Erdmann]

Overhead of the Eden hole at St. Andrews



Photo of the Eden hole at Fisher's Island

[Jim Adkisson]

Mike...from your photo of Fishers Landing, it looks as if there are not fronting bunkers that would mimic Shell and Strath bunkers...giving the ability to:

play "short of the hole (even using putters) and chipped on to avoid disaster. In addition, a topped ball was not punished."

Obviously the long grass prohibits the use of the putter, but the bump and run certainly looks in play on the Fishers Landing Eden.

Would this make the quintessential Eden hole more about the hazards long of the green vs. having the choices being very limited as to how to attack a pin location that is on the front of the green?

I am really looking forward to meeting up with you, Garland and Peter this afternoon.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I vaguely remember the HHWind GD article in about 1966, where he extolled the virtues of the Eden, describing the beauty of the hole as the fear of finding the deep Strath bunker possibly directing play a bit further left, where the golfer inadvertantly finds the less fearsome hill bunker, but finds himself in the bunker nonetheless as a result of playing too cautiously.

That description, from memory, fails to mention the little ridge in front of the green that assists balls in rolling left or right depending on how your run up shot lands.  We have also discussed that CBM (Hey, shouldn't Kelly Blake Moran's mom spelled it Celly, so he could have the same initials?) often added a top shot bunker, presumably reflecting the Shell bunker, but also in reaction to some belief that the hole was "too easy" for allowing a topped shot to roll on.

I always took the meaning of the hole from that HHW article (and my own subsequent thoughts) to mean (in modern practice) that its okay to have bunker left, bunker right, so long as one is clearly the more punishing hazard.

[Bill_McBride]

I've played the Eden holes at Yale and the Creek, and seen the Chicago Golf Club version up close.  None seem to have the combination of fronting Strath and steep slopes down from the back and down from the cape of the Hill meeting at 90 degrees that the original features.  None of those holes seemed anything like as daunting as the Eden at TOC, which has so much going on including the huge expanse of green to the right (7th green area).

Lovely holes but not up to the standard of the original IMHO.  What of the other holes by MacDonald/Raynor?  What are good examples by other architects?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm with Panhandle Bill on this one.

I've yet to really play a great Eden that grasped the unique and thrilling characteristics of the original, all while fitting into the natural context and then producing it's own personality. The Eden, in my view, is simply a demanding tee shot that induces some sort of blood pressure-raising 'thrill' or challenge. It's all there right in front of you--standing on the tee: carry or die or the most precise bump-n-run past some fo the most threatening positioning of bunkers that allows you a shot at the pin. More people can skull it on that hole from fear and come-up lucky, and it amazes me that C.B., when creating the 13th at the National, strived for eliminating that portion of the shot--not that there is anything wrong with that, because the 13th is probably one of the best Eden's I've played other then the original.

Once your on the green--a green that is filled with some of the most ingenious INTERNAL CONTOURING that is as deep as Paris Hilton's brain--it is as equally as threatening.

The hole is brilliant.

Jeff Brauer,
Hard to believe you read anything other then your own posts, but I challenge you right here and right now to go out and build me the best Eden to your ability. Do something that no architect has ever done before, and that's accomplish the strategy and the most defining nature of the Eden from the tee, and on the green.

[Dan_Callahan]

What is the Eden Hole at Yale? 15?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yes. The 15th is the Eden at Yale.

[George_Bahto]

aside from the obvious green complex and bunkering it is this statement by CBM that was the "capper" of the "story"

fm my quote above:

"Macdonald felt there should be an intimidating hazard fronting the Eden hole because at the turn of the century golfers sometimes played short of the hole (even using putters) and chipped on to avoid disaster. In addition, a topped ball was not punished. At the National Golf Links, Macdonald placed the 13th Eden green on the far side of a stretch of water to combat this."

he was paranoid about this (among other things - hah - wadda guy)

every one of his and Raynor's Eden holes had a problem off the tee top prevent a topped shot from advancing (not ss Charlie Banks)    .... a pond, a ravine, bull-rushes, whatever.

There was "normally" a bunker beyond the green but water behind the green was not one of the features included .... although as Tom P said there are many set with a water backdrop"  F/Is - Westhampmton an many more

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I still don't understand why Raynor's "Edens" were so nondescript by comparison with the original.

Travis got the hole closest to right with the 18th at Garden City, but it's still nowhere near as severe as the original.  I was choking big-time on the real thing in the Dunhill Cup last fall -- it was playing into a solid 3-club wind quartering from the left and there is always a big back-up on that hole with the crossover and all.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak, have you used the Eden concepts --fronting bunkers, steep compound slopes -- at any of your courses?

I really don't think I've seen a green anywhere quite like that end of the 7/11 green at The Old Course.   In a "3 club wind quartering from the left," I'll bet the far right side of the green (i.e. right of Strath) did a lot of business!  A tee shot aimed at Hill hoping for the wind to move the ball right wouldn't be much fun if it didn't!

[Mark_Fine]

Here is #15 at Yale.  I just played there on Wednesday.



Also played CC of Fairfield this past week.  #14 is the Eden on that course.  I was allowed to take photos but can't post them.  I will say that #14 has a similar bunker on the front right and has marshland beyond the green.  It is a good hole but nothing to get real excited about.  

[Tom_Doak]

Bill M:  We've built a version of the Eden twice, that I can recall.

The 13th at Beechtree was on the dullest stretch of the whole property, but it's a pretty decent version of the hole.  There is a bit more green hanging behind the deep bunker on the right than what they normally use at St. Andrews, and a contour in the middle of the green basically makes the hole location either right or left (or back middle).  So it's not a close copy but it's a pretty good hole.

The 10th at The Rawls Course is closer in plan view to the real thing.  There's a pond on the right, but the main difficulty is that it plays downwind most of the time and it's hard to stop a shot over the bunker on the right, so you have to play for the left-center opening and allow for the ball to release.  It's a very hard hole in that wind.

Is either hole as good as the real thing?  Not even close.  But we have a course in planning right now where we plan to build an Eden-type hole and I think this time we will get it right.  (Sorry but I can't say where just yet.)

[George_Bahto]

Tom Doak said:

"George: I still don't understand why Raynor's "Edens" were so nondescript by comparison with the original."

Tom, I think, by comparison to the original they are just about terrible.

I mean, the Eden and Redan were considered the best 3's on earth.

This has been bothering me since I started my research.

Did he think it would be too hard ? - did he think the back to front would be too severe ?  

................  I cannot think of any version they did that even comes close to what the original represented.

He/they built great Redans, great Shorts and great Biarritz's (or is it Biarritzi - ) - but Eden's?

Now given today's "fairness-world" I can understand this but Macdonald had no one to answer to, anytime, anyplace.

Even Raynor had his way most all of the time but here I can even "excuse" the lack of severity and difficulty of such a great hole because he had NGLA - 13 as his prototype but he must have heard CBM talking about this great hole many, many times.

I've always felt Raynor, perhaps unofficially, was not to build a "better" version of any of the holes on other courses that would "outshine" anything at National.

Tom, you spent a lot of time there ...........  how steep (in feet) is 11-St Andrews from back to front?


2-part question though:


Obviously from the tip of the back to the lowest of the front would be one number.            

Then we might think of the viable/playable part of the green as yet another number.          


Here's another question:  Could you, Tom Doak build a "real" copy of this front to back, today - I doubt it. (I mean they're "softening" Winged Foot as we speak - damn!!)

But back in the teens and 20's, and at those green speeds, you'd think they (CBM & SR) could have come up with a more befitting version.

The versions we post here (Camargo, Fishers Island, even the one Banks built at Forsgate - all very nice holes) are very picturesque, incorporate the basics, and play quite good for 160-yarders (moderate green surfaces) but to say they are "near-representative" of the original ?  Not to me.

Why did CB wimp?   good question ........  

(perhaps in a next conversation ...................  hah)

wadda wimp!!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'm with Panhandle Bill on this one.

Jeff Brauer,
Hard to believe you read anything other then your own posts,

Oh, now that is just TOO MUCH of a coincidence, isn't it TommY? I believe the same thing about you!

Nonetheless, your description of the peril of the Eden was as good as any I have read here, and I appreciate that.  Feeble minded as I am, I am not sure about your Paris Hilton/Internal Contour remark. I suppose you mean to say the dramatic downslope constitutes internal contour?  Of course it does, or are there any other subtleties you were thinking of other than the bump in front of the green?

To answer George's question, yes, the Eden is probably at least shied away from on many courses.  You may recall a thread I started a few years ago entitled "What if I miss it there?"  Certainly, going over a modern Eden (not to mention the original) and having an uncontrollable chip is not a favorite concept in many golfers minds.

And to answer someone else's question, I think someone posted a contour map of the original Eden green on this site a while back that someone could look up and repost, no?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff Brauer,
Deep as Paris Hilton, meaning as shallow as her brain. I'll post the topo again.

Uncle George,
As steep and severe as any green to it's depth I've ever seen.


Tom Doak,
I always seem to forget just how good the Eden is at GCGC, although for me it still doesn't represent the same type of fearful shot as the original. The green seems similar, but somewhat larger. However, that trench-like bunker can be death. I'm not saying that it should be an exact copy, but I do think it should somewhat embrace the same principles at the original.

[Sean_A]

I seem to recall somebody saying the Eden green had a slope of ~9 inches to every 10 feet.  I think that would make the green about 3.5 feet higher at the back than front.  I thought it was more severe than this.  

Bill

In the conditions Tom D. described (which are extreme for this tee shot) I hit 3 wood and ended up really on the 7th green with a massive sidehiller putt of maybe 100 feet.  I never stood a chance of two putting.  A putt like that needs to be practiced before really trying it.  

Ciao

Sean

[Stuart Hallett]

We know that amongst others, Colt was a keen student of TOC. Although simplified, the 8th on the Eden course captures the essentials of the concept (does anyone have a pic, pre Steel ?), Colt repeated and tweaked this hole on other courses.
It would be nice to agree on the basic concept rather than reverting to the finer details at TOC. I get the feeling that all the above mentioned copies seem to be loosing credibility from over analysis.

Holes that I have affectionately referred to as Eden copies suddenly have a big ? hanging over them !
Does this hole qualify ?
Thanks

 

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I think those contours on Tommy's drawing are 0.25 meters apart, so there is 1.25 meters (4 feet) between the back of the green and the front right hole location.  Unless you are counting the extension of the double green, in which case there's nearly 8 feet of fall altogether to the right of #7.  (Did you leave your first putt short, Sean?)

The weird thing about the hole is that in some respects fast green speeds are almost making it easier; in the conditions I played it, the ball won't stay on the slope behind the hole when it's located over the Strath, so if you play the ball high left it feeds right back down to the hole, a bit like the sixteenth at Augusta although the penalties for missing are more severe.  One of the pros we played with almost made a one there and his tee shot landed about 25 feet left of the hole.

The reason it is such a great hole is because the penalty over the back is so severe that you CANNOT just take the bunkers out of play by flying your tee shot past them.  You pretty much have to play toward the entrance of the green and it feels ridiculously narrow because you're so unaccustomed to squeezing a shot between two hazards in the modern game.

[Sean_A]

George:

I think those contours on Tommy's drawing are 0.25 meters apart, so there is 1.25 meters (4 feet) between the back of the green and the front right hole location.  Unless you are counting the extension of the double green, in which case there's nearly 8 feet of fall altogether to the right of #7.  (Did you leave your first putt short, Sean?)

Tom

Yep.  I left it about 10 feet short ( I thought anything inside 5 feet would have been very good).  Left myself with another slippery side hill putt.  To be fair, I had no idea how hard to hit the putt because of the length and wind.  I would have much preferred hitting a rolling 6 iron, but fear held me back.

Ciao

Sean

[Kelly Blake Moran]

"It has been suggested that the mere fact that it is possible to putt the whole length is an objection to it...I do not know of a single example of a player achieving success in an important match by this means."

"If a cross bunker were constructed at this hole, it would become appreciably diminished in interest in consequence.  The narrow entrance and subtle slopes have all the advantages of a cross bunker without making it impossible for the long handicap man."

Dr. Mac

[Tom_Doak]

Kelly:

Good counterpoint.  It just goes to show that not all of those "golden age" guys thought the same way about everything.

In the end, Macdonald was an accomplished player, and it killed him for someone to suggest that any of his holes were "weak" -- his reaction to his son-in-law driving the first green at National is pretty telling.  MacKenzie, on the other hand, was all about giving options to the weak player and making the strong player prove his superiority with the odds against him.

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