Fazio - The Frog (Villa Rica, GA)

[Andy Doyle]

I enjoy talking about courses I've actually played and have some miniscule knowledge of, so I thought I would separate this from the Bandon thread.

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... I like the Frog (West of Atlanta).

What is interesting about the Frog is that it was the first stage of a major development that went bust, so there it sits, all alone in the middle of nowhere. It has a few shakey holes but most are very well executed with a few really strong holes.

As they have run tight on funds they have cut back slightly on the groundskeeping, not a lot, but just enough to take the lush edge off. In the end, I think the sort of tattered around the edges look, adds a bit to its charm and sharpens the holes a bit with firmer fairways and more errant bounces.

Paul:

I really enjoy playing at the Frog - one of my favorite courses in Atlanta (if you consider east Alabama part of Atlanta).  Not to hijack this thread (I'll start a new one if appropriate) - what do you think are the shaky holes at the Frog?

Andy

Andy,

In regard to the Frog, which is my favorite Fazio course I've played to date. My feelings are these;

I love the opening 3 holes. Every one is all about placement and that can change with the pin location. In fact I really like the entire front nine.

The first odd hole I think is #6 (shortish downhill dogleg right). The tee shot is not long, but the fairway banks towards the bend so it is very difficult to play the ball out left enough to avoid the trees for a shot at the green. With a front pin you can play better out of the left rough.

I don't like #10 but maybe I just don't like straight holes. They do have drainage issues there as well.

Probably the one I think of most as being an afterthought is #15. It is a short uphill slight dolgleg left. The green is kind of cool being a small kidney bean, but the landing area just seems wrong. He provides a split fairway for the approach with a bunker dead center in front of the green. The problem is the landing area is not wide enough to use any of those features. It seems almost no matter where the pin is located you end up playing the same two shots. This just made it seem like an interesting hole to look at but wasn't well thought out.

Just my lowly and ameteurish opinion.

 

[Andy Doyle]

Paul:

Agree about the front 9.

One is a puzzling hole - how do you play it?  I've tried banging a long drive - but that usually funnels down in that gully way over to the right, leaving a shorter iron but mostly blind shot.  I've also tried laying back left with a 3 wood, but that leaves a much long iron in, or if you hit it too far, a tough downhill lie.

I like #6.  I tend to fade the ball, so I like the challenge of shaping that shot if you try to drive way down close to the green.  I think it's a good risk/reward short par 4.  You can hit a safe 4/5 iron and have a short iron, but if you try to drive it and don't shape it just right you are in big trouble.  I've made about every mistake on that hole:

- Pulled it left of the bunker down the steep hill into the trees/brush.
- Tried to fade it but hit it straight through the fairway into the gunch.
- Lost it right into the pine trees & tried to thread it back out.
- Hit a good one barely to the right side & wound up mostly blocked by the pine trees - forced to go up and over with a wedge.

It's a seemingly simple hole if you play it really safe all the time, but it just begs me to try and hit the perfect shot.

I like #10 too, but then I'm a sucker for elevated tees.  What I really like though is how subtlely that creek on the right comes into play around the green.

I think you're right about 15.  I do like how it shares the huge bunker/waste area with 14, but unless you really block it off the tee it really doesn't come into play.  I guess this fits some of the criticism I've read about Fazio - looks pretty & challenging but isn't really functional.  I would say this also about the huge bunker down the entire right side of the par 3 11th.  It would make much more sense to have that center bunker way back down the fairway in the landing area, making it a true split fairway instead of a split approach/greenside area.  That is a cool green, though - you do not want to be long!

8 and 9 make a tough finish to the front.  8 is a long and hard par 3 - lots of ways to make a big number, but it has some good options (bail-out area to right; possibility of bouncing it off the right hillside onto the green).  9 makes you really work for it - uphill drive, uphill approach, big false front - makes you really think about club selection on the approach.

Andy

[Paul Payne]

Andy,

It is interesting talking about this course because it has been a while since I have been there but I played at least 10 or 15 times over the course of two years a while back. Have they developed any of the housing yet? I cringe to think if they encroach too much onto the course.

I think you answered my question for me as to why you are always in the gully on #1. If you have a fade at all on that tee I don't think you could be anywhere else. If you are able to keep it your left however the ball will stay up affording you a decent view of the green. I like to play the drive to the left when the pin is up because I can judge the distance better, but I like to play out of the gully when the pin is back to take the steep bank out of play as well as the potential bunker on the front left side.

I like #8 it is a tough par 3. It is virtually an island with the one bailout bank that you mentioned to the right. I have faced my inner chicken many times and gone for the bank. #9 I think is OK. I like everything except it may be just a bit too uphill. Any more of a hill it would be comical.

I think of all my favorite holes might be #2 and #13. #2 because the pin can be well protected so requires a little thought off the tee. #13 because it has some great riskk reward opportunities. If you are long and brave on your second shot you can get the downhill slope just left of the bunker and sometimes get the roll all the way on. On the other hand, even if you lay up the third shot to the green can be challenging because of the pond and it can be partially blind as well.

I would like to play there again if I'm in the area.

[A.G._Crockett]

The Frog is easily my favorite of the Fazio courses I've played.  Other than the kind of funky tee shot on #1, I liked it all, and I was very, very pleasantly surprised in that regard.

I've only been there once, so I can't do a great job of hole-by-hole, unfortunately.  I just remember good variety, good use of elevation changes, and a terrific practice area.  As far as the housing, I don't think anything has been done yet.

BTW, when I played the Frog a couple of years ago, I posted on it here, and my recollection is that I got killed.  This came not only from the Fazio detractors, of which I confess to be one, but also from lots of people who had actually played the course, which I found odd.  It may not be a great course, but it isn't a bad one in any case.

[Gary Daughters]

I have played the Frog twice, which should mean that my feeling for the course is marginal.  But I have generally been underwhelmed.  I hope I am missing something and would like to get back to find out.

To me the Frog's assets are:

1) Generally solid
2) Very well maintained (even if the budget has been cut.  If so, credit goes to the supe and his guys).

My impression overall is that there are not that many memorable holes.  It's just kind of bland.

#2 really is intriguing, and maybe the best hole out there.  Too bad Fazio couldn't have translated what he did there throughout the course.

#4 has the potential to be a really fine hole, but the landing area is too tight, pinched.

#5 to me is flat-out boring, and #6 seems to be another missed opportunity.  if you kill a driver you might make the green, but if you don't it's one of the wimpiest little wedges possible.. even if the defenses around the green are pretty ok.

#7.. i want to pull out my hair and say "so what?"

#8 is a really good par 3.  #9 is tough and solid, but that's about all.  i don't see much character there and that's my overall problem with the course.

To me, the back nine takes the front nine's blandness to a whole new level, the one exception being #12 (I think), which is a very satisfying par-4.  #13, the par-5, I have to DQ myself because I have played it horribly and can't comment other than to say that I hate it.

After that, there's really.. nothing.

#18 could be a really nice hole, except that it's too long, at least for me, to have any risk/reward.  It's basically a drive, 7-iron layup and wedge to an interesting green.  But again, so what?

I just don't get it.  It seems charmless to me.

[Brad Klein]

How can anyone even take seriously a golf course named The Frog?

[Gary Daughters]

I kinda like "The Frog."  Reminds me of my backswing somehow.  

[Gary Daughters]

PLUS:  it beats "Trembling Treeforks," "Hidden Rivers," "Majestic Mountains" and whatever other tripe the PR parasites are coming up with.

[John_Cullum]

The Georgia Open was held at the Frog about 5 years ago. I was uninspired. It was not bad, but not that good either. Of course, it's around Atlanta, and that is tough terrain to work. It definitely has the Fazio look that so many around here find distasteful.

As for 18 being too long, Dave Schreyer had no trouble making Eagle in the final round to post about -23.

As for the name, they called it the frog because if you look at a map of the course, it looks kind of like a leaping frog. I think it's pretty idiotic.

[Gary Daughters]

John,

Are any of the rest of us Dave Schreyer?

Anyone out there reach it in two?  

[A.G._Crockett]

How can anyone even take seriously a golf course named The Frog?

Brad,
In the increasingly pretentious art of golf course naming, The Frog is pretty benign.  Every time I see "The Concession" advertised or mentioned, my stomach heaves...

[Andy Doyle]

How can anyone even take seriously a golf course named The Frog?

They have a cool logo of a jumping bullfrog - created by a neighbor of mine's graphic arts firm.  The tee markers used to be a welded iron version of the logo, but people kept stealing them.



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[Andy Doyle]

I disagree that it's bland or unmemorable.  I've played a few other Fazio courses, including the "highly regarded" White Columns and The National at Reynolds Plantation and I would have to say that I've finished rounds there with little remembrance of specific holes.

Maybe it's because I've played the Frog more, but I find plenty of interest in this course.  I'm not arguing it's an architectural gem, but I think it's a good course on a beautiful piece of property.

Andy

[Jesse Jones]

Gary,

As to #18.. Just short of the green on 18 in two..Chip and a putt for birdie..

The Frog was meant to be a Resort Course. It looks and plays just like one. A few challenging holes like 8-9(I butchered it)  and 13..A few cake holes 3-4-14 and 18..With the rest being pretty boring, making sure you don't lose a dozen balls or leave really p.o.'d..
 
Jesse

[John_Cullum]

Is it still affiliated with Marriott or whoever it was?

[Gary Daughters]

Jesse..

"Resort courses" would be worthy of a thread.  Probably been done.  

John..

I believe it is still Marriott.

[Gary Daughters]

John Cullum wrote:

"Of course, it's around Atlanta, and that is tough terrain to work with."

John, what exactly is it about the terrain around Atlanta that makes it tough to work with?  Is it hills and other assorted elevation changes?  Or does the terrain here work against itself?  It seems at times to crash off in several different directions.

We have plenty of quality golf courses here, but is the terrain one of the reasons for the lack of truly stellar courses that we have lamented before?  The rocky soil?  The red clay?

[Andy Doyle]

I've only gotten bits and pieces of the story, but my understanding is that the project started with the intention of being a resort along the lines of Calloway Gardens, etc. with a Marriot and at least 36 holes.  They have apparently abandoned plans for the hotel and the second 18 and have been cutting in roads and started building houses.  My sense is that it will turn into another exurban housing tract.  The last time I was there (late last summer) the housing plans had most definitely encroached on the golf as one of the roads had been cleared in open view behind the 4th green and 5th tee - which used to feel like one of the more isolated areas on the course.

Andy

[John_Cullum]

  It seems at times to crash off in several different directions.

I think that sort of describes a common problem I see around Atlanta. The land is rarely a gentle slope down into a drainage, it sort of rolls along and then falls down into a red rocky canyon, and the pattern repeats throughout the acreage. Atlanta is basically the southern tip of the blue ridge mountains, with Peachtree Street running along the top of the ridge.