Question?

[JESII]

Does the fast part of firm and fast pertain to the actual speed balls roll across that surface, whether it's fairway or green? Or does it describe the speed at which balls bounce on the first couple of impacts with the ground. Does fast describe speed or firmness?

[Glenn Spencer]

Fast to me, does not mean firmness, that is what the firm part is. Firm and fast to me, means that marginal shots are not accepted, it comes down to spin on the greens, whether it be an iron shot or a chip. Tee shots must be hit straighter because of the run out. Overall, I think one must have more control of their golf ball in these conditions.

[JESII]

I agree about the the control of the golf ball thought Glenn. What got me thinking this way was a post on another thread quoting a superintendent saying that in August in the Northeast he could provide a tournament organizer with either firm or fast conditions but not both. As I wrote a post asking which would be preferrable if only one were available I realized nobody in their right mind would choose soft and fast. Firm seems to really be the lynchpin to the whole maintenance issue, agree? disagree?

[Bill_McBride]

I think "firm and fast" is a compound adjective - one and the same resulting from maintenance practices that avoid overwatering.

The result is fifty yards of roll vs none on a well-struck tee ball, or the possibility of landing an approach shot thirty yards in front of a green and running on, rather than landing on the green and sticking near impact.

So I don't think there's any way to separate "firm" from "fast," it can't be one or the other.

[JESII]

That's where I got torn Bill. So does the speed of the greens not mean anything in talking about firm and fast? I think the size of fairways and greens shrink exponentially as "stimpmeter" speeds increase.

[Glenn Spencer]

Bill has said it perfectly for me, I don't instantly see how you can have soft and fast or slow and firm. Is that just no water on the fairways, but plenty on the greens? I think fast has to be a part of the approach as well. Firm and fast makes me think of the way Oakmont played for the US Amateur in 2003.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't think the speed of the greens has to factor in. If the fairways are running fast and the greens are bricks but slowish, I would say that golf course is playing firm and fast.

[JESII]

Soft and Fast would be the norm for PGA Tour set-ups. Ball hits ground and stops dead, but the grass is extremely close cut in the fairways and the greens are very fast.

Firm and Slow would be good firm ground with grass heights up a bit so green and fairway speeds are down.

I'm not suggesting these are possible, but rather trying to figure out why the superintendent at Piping Rock would tell someone you could have one or the other but not both.

[JESII]

p.s. Bill said it pretty well for me as well, but I think there are many different impressions of the concept.

[Pete Lavallee]

JES,

I was puzzled by this comment also. Thinking about it, to get the greens fast you cut them shorter than normal; this won't make them any firmer however. To make them firmer you would withold irrigation to the barest minimum needed to keep the grass alive, but that wouldn't necessarily make them any faster, would it? I can see why witholding water would make it risky to cut the grass shorter.

How does rolling enter into this equation. Wouldn't rolling the greens make them firmer and smoother, therefore faster as well? I have no experience with green rolling; it's not an integral part of municipal course maintenance.

[George Pazin]

Jim -

I'm fairly certain there are supers at Oakmont, Merion, Huntington Valley, etc., who would tell you that firm and fast is indeed possible in August. I know the super at Oakmont will be expected to have it ready for the Open next year in June, I'd be surprised if he said August was that much different.

I've always felt if one had to go, I'd pick fast to go - I'd rather see firm than fast, if I had to choose. Nothing is as disappointing to me as playing on a nice summer day and having a ball sit down pretty much anywhere - I'm not the type of golfer that puts that much spin on it that I am capable of sucking it back on greens. Every once in a great while, maybe, but not as a rule. I think soft really makes things less fun.

I've always thought that most better golfers prefer the opposite - soft and fast. But, then again, I've always felt most golfers, especially "better" ones, want things to seem or appeardifficult - i.e. fast - but in fact want it to be relatively forgiving - i.e. soft.

Tom Paul's certainly one of the prime proponents of f&f, and I believe he has said he feels firm is the more important compenent, though ideally he wants both when possible.

Re: the PGA Tour, I've always thought it appeared soft and fast, but I've been told that it's a lot firmer than I think, those guys are just that good. I'm not good enough to tell.

[TEPaul]

Sully;

In my opinion "Through the green" the "firm" part describes the ground and the "fast" part describes the bounce and rollout of the golf ball.