Does Mt Ridge have the best set of original Ross greens ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mt Ridge, a wonderful Donald Ross design in northern New Jersey appears to have the best set of original Ross greens.

I don't know of one green that has been altered since 1929.

Perhaps Ron Prichard who worked to restore Mt Ridge from years of changes, at the hands of green chairman, can comment on the authenticity of the 18 greens at Mt Ridge.

In addition, Mt Ridge should be complemented.

Even though green speeds have increased dramatically, none of the slopes or contours in the greens have been removed or softened, although, there was some talk of altering their punchbowl green on # 7, like NGLA nothing has been done to date, and hopefully nothing will be done.

Are there any courses that have all of their original Ross greens intact ?   Intact meaning that they were never altered from their original construction.

[mark chalfant]

Patrick, it beens a while soince ive played   M. Ridge, many neat greens there

However in my opinion, White Bear Yacht, MN and Brookside, Ohio are his finest sets.   Salem and  the Orchards are also excellent

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Where do you put Aronimink's greens in the heirarchy?  I think they are excellent and are the highlights of the course by far.  Ron Forse is very partial to CC York's greens which are also very well done.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark & Wayne,

Are all of the greens at the clubs you mention, UNALTERED since their original construction ?

[wsmorrison]

That's a good question, Pat.  I don't know the answer to that, but I know who is likeliest to know in each case and I'll find out.  In the strictest sense, I doubt there are too many greens that are unaltered in any way.  I interpret it as meaning unchanged surface contouring but with possible area shrinkage allowed in the definition (although not preferred by any means).  How do you define "unaltered?"  After all, the grass strains are likely different and of course the mowing heights are decidedly so.  

[wsmorrison]

Ron Forse told me that the present 3rd at Mountain Ridge (he grew up there and worked on the course) is a Herbert Strong and that there's one other he couldn't recall offhand that is not Ross.  Ron Said the 9th at CC York was modified slightly but all others are original.  

Ron thinks Mountain Ridge has the best Ross in NJ (that must be saying a lot) and as I said he thinks that CC York has the best Ross in PA.  That is saying a lot given how good the greens are at Aronimink.  

Since NJ does not compare favorably to PA in any regard that leaves CC York with the best Ross between the two states

[Eckstein]

Forse grew up at Mt. Ridge but they hired Pritchard to restore the course?? Why??

[Mike_Sweeney]

Patrick, it beens a while soince ive played   M. Ridge, many neat greens there

However in my opinion, White Bear Yacht, MN and Brookside, Ohio are his finest sets.   Salem and  the Orchards are also excellent



















mn and Brookside(Ohio) have the sets of Ross putting surfaces

Mark,

I have to ask. Is all that space in your post some sort of Da Vinci Code?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

I'd define "unaltered" as nobody's tampered with them.

Mt Ridge is the real deal.

They've done a great job, they just need to keep removing trees, especially the ones planted since 1970.

The westerly holes will always have drainage problems as they sit so close to a swamp, but, it's a wonderful golf course with great greens, and one of the strongest finishes anywhere.

I'll be there on monday and will look at the old aerials of the 3rd green.  It looks more like a CBM-SR-CB short green.

Since Banks designed The Knoll, only a few miles west, in 1929, the same year Ross did Mt Ridge, I wonder if Ross was influenced on this very short par 4 by Bank's work on # 6 at The Knoll.  

In addition, Banks did the 4th nine at Montclair around the same time and the 7th hole is a "short" green in the CBM-SR-CB mold.

When did Strong allegedly redesign the 3rd green ?
Why was he called in ?
And, why was his alleged work limited to one or two holes ?

By the way, nice article in Links Magazine about you and TEPaul and the Greenbriar.

Eckstein,

Hillary Clinton didn't grow up in New York State either.

I don't think residence gets many points with a committee.

[TEPaul]

For all that's gone on otherwise with some of Aronimink's features over the years for the most part its greens are original, as is the routing.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Those are all questions (and good ones) you should direct to Ron Forse as I've no idea.  You guys have a nice relationship, give him a call and I'm sure he'd be glad to provide the information.

Links Magazine mentions Tom Paul and I in relation to our work at Cascades.  Lester George is doing or is done with his work at Old White at Greenbrier.  Unfortunately, the author of the article calls Tom and I architects.  As you know we are NOT architects.  We provided an exhaustive study of the evolution of the course and with Craig Disher provided overlays of Flynn's very accurate drawings (which show the course was built exactly according to the plans) and a modern aerial, which shows clearly and quantitatively how the course had changed (added bunkers, changed bunker sizes and shapes, reduced green area, etc).  A qualified construction crew was able to use our detailed materials to construct the golf course as it was in Flynn's era.

We are having a conference at Cascades which will dovetail nicely with the golf architecture research center and archive.  This is a benchmark example of the practical use of archival materials in a restoration.  We couldn't have done it without Flynn's method of operation and the passion and desire of the owners and members to see as pure a restoration to the last Flynn iteration as possible.  

By all accounts the work came off exceedingly well.  Jim Finegan, a man that has played the course for many decades, is thrilled with the results as are members and the entire staff of the Homestead (Doug Miller, the super loves it) and ClubCorp.

I think Ran may do a Feature Interview on the process with plenty of before and after pictures.  That should present our process very well and we look forward to doing it.

[wsmorrison]

I learned from Ron Forse that the 7th green at Mountain Ridge was redone by Tillinghast.  So there are only16 original Ross greens at the club.

Ron tells me that he didn't grow up a member of the club but that he caddied and worked on the maintenance crew there and played his high school golf (Caldwell High School) at the club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eckstein,

I live in New Jersey and CAN"T vote in New York elections.

I would have voted for Mayor Blumberg if they'd have given me a double secret ballot.

Wayne,

The 7th green is a punchbowl like green.
It's hard to believe that AWT designed # 7 and Strong # 3, but, stranger things have happened.
Ron Prichard indicates that all 18 greens are Ross's, so I'll have to try to see what's what.

Great work at the Cascades.
You should be happy.
I knew you guys were up to a project of note when I had to sign a release allowing TEPaul to leave the State of Pennsylvania.

How's the book coming along ?

We all owe a debt of gratitude to Craig Disher for all that he's done for so many of us and GCA.com in general.

Thanks Craig.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Thanks for your kind words.  The book is done.  It is in the publisher's hands and they say it will be released in 2007 (probably during the holiday season).  We still have a lot of work to do to edit the book and layout the drawings and photos.  As you know, we have hundreds to choose from.  

I think you're due for a trip down these parts if I am not mistaken.  I'll call you soon.  

Thank you for praising Craig's efforts.  He has been a tremendous resource for many of us.  Tom and I in particular are indebted to his tireless efforts.  Of course he gets to pal around with us so I guess he's even  

[mark chalfant]

Patrick, at Brookside I believe  17of 18 are original the green complexes have  tremendous variety. also ,the  movement in the land is more robust inthe vein of  Plainfield

White Bear's greens are are remarkable, Jim Urbina or Brad Klein may know of possible changes there I personally prefer the green/surrounds at Salem,Franklin Hills,and Longmeadow over Mtn ridge.
Patrick, howabout you ?

[mark chalfant]

Wayne,,,,itsbeen 15years sinceiveseen
Aronimink but Ifeel Lulus  greens may bemore  interesting

[redanman]

Even with flat #13 (we'll just stay out of that whole thing) I'll pick Plainfield over Mountain Ridge for a set of greens for Ross.  

They have, however been altered, Hanse reclaimed a ton of square footage on several greens: starting right with #1

ditto: LuLu. She has had a lot of reclamation, perhaps as much as any course (Forse) and there are some incredible greens out there.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I think Wannamoisett has the best set of Ross greens that I've played.  I think they are all originals.  

They have more variety and complexity then #2's and Seminole's.  Seminole has a non-Ross 18th green and Plainfield has several although they are all excellent. Other honorable mention candidates are Aronimink, Mt Ridge and French Lick.

I fell in love with Wannamoisett for its greens and its variety.  It has most of the things I love about Fenway and more.  It can be fun and yet has brutal holes that can challenge the best players.  The greens are its soul and they are special.