You must be kidding !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Last night I watched the ReMax Long Drive Contest.

It was held at night, when it's cooler and the air denser.

One fellow carried the ball 390 yards.

I flashed back to Nicklaus in his prime, the greatest golfer of all time.   Nicklaus wasn't known to carry the ball 260 yards, especially at night in cool, dense air.  

And yet, here was this fellow hitting it [size=8x]50 %[/size] further than Nicklaus on his best days.  

[size=8x]50 %[/size]  Are you kidding me !

And, they were all using USGA conforming clubs.

What is wrong with that picture.

Then, I watched a guy who played basketball against us in high school, who was 62 years old, and in the Super Senior Division, hit it 318 yards.

And, many of these drives were straight, with little or no roll after impact, most of the long hitters "launch" the ball high, so it lands soft.

The USGA's former test model was Iron Byron with a Driver clubhead swing speed of 109 mph.   I believe it was in 2004 that the USGA increased the testing model to a swing speed of 120 mph.

Yet, most of the swing speeds at the ReMax were much higher.  One was measured at 155 mph.

It's clear that the testing model is lagging far behind the actual swing speeds being swung by the finalists.

With lower spin rates, higher launch angles and further improvements in shafts, balls and other contributing factors, the distance trend isn't loosing momentum or ground.

Is it any wonder that "Flogging" is becoming more popular ?

One of the other concerns voiced by a former exec with the PGA is that players are hitting 5-irons 220-230 yards, and, there's no end in sight.

The ball goes higher, straighter and farther.

Years and years ago Ron Prichard wrote to the USGA and warned of this trend.  He continues to crusade against the increase in distance.

Pretty soon the better golfers will carry 14 clubs.
4 drivers, 4 wedges, 4 utility clubs and 2 putters.

A competition ball that impacts and limiits distance on swing speeds of 110 and above would be a good first step in freezing or retroing distance.  It has to be the first step.

The equipment should be the second step.

The USGA has to put their past mistakes behind them and take a prudent stand with respect to reigning in distance, and they have to do it sooner rather then later,

However, I would imagine that ANGC will develop a competition ball first, following the OGA, as I don't see the USGA taking the first step.

What can be done to make the USGA more aware of the problem ?

[PThomas]

Patrick - I would bet they already fully aware of the problem

are they scared of being sued or what, I just  don't know

[TEPaul]

"Yet, most of the swing speeds at the ReMax were much higher.  One was measured at 155 mph."

Patrick:

I can tell you with categorical certainty----with absolute guarantee----that measurement is total out and out unadulterated bullshit.

I remember seeing world driving champion and long drive hall of famer Art Selinger hit the ball may 15 years ago and he was launching it straight into space and well into the mid 300s back then. Who knows what his equipment was though.

What ball was he using? He had about ten new dozen packages of Pinnacles with him.

Low spinning Pinnacles and just launching them straight up into space. And this idiot David Moriarty thinks these new ProVxs and such are much longer for long hitters than those old legal Pinnacles were back then?

No way.

So let's not have another thread that goes through all this stuff once again. I can absolutely guarantee you that the USGA is fully aware of all this and are probably in the middle of the process of doing something about this.

Haven't you read the report USGA Equipment Standards Committee chairman Jim Vernon gave at the USGA's annual meeting?

If not, read it and you'll be able to see what the USGA seems to be doing about it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul T,

If they were aware of it, they would have increased the swing speed of the model to 130-145 mph.

TEPaul,

The swing speeds were accurate.
If they rerun the event, watch it.
You don't carry the ball 390 with a 120 mph or 130 mph swing speed

The balls they were using last night were the Pinnacle Golds.

Are they conforming ?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Remax  ---> Golf

just as

Arena Football  ---> NFL  

What happens on the LDA circuit is meaningless.  These guys are long hitting wonders.  One guy was using a driver 100ccs under the USGA limit...didn't hold him back.

Rick Barry is a good golfer, and he is 6'7" with a long wingspan...why would anyone be surprised that he can hit the ball over 300 yds?

How do you know Jack Nicklaus would have been incapable of carrying the ball 260 yds when given the opportunity to let it rip at a grid with nothing on the line?  

[TEPaul]

"If they were aware of it, they would have increased the swing speed of the model to 130-145 mph."

Patrick:

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. All the balls that are passing the distance conformance test (the ODS) today at 120mph would pass the test at the old ODS mph factor of 109.  

The USGA has not loosened their rules and regs on distance at all by going to a "pass/fail" mph factor of 120. They have not loosened their I&B rules and regs on distance conformance at all although they may be considering writing or instituting new rules and regs to address some of aspects of I&B technology that their present and 30 year old rules and regs failed to address.

Some people actually think that the USGA intended to limit any golf ball from traveling any farther than the old 298 yard limitation period. That distance limitation was only at the 109 mph clubhead speed which was the old conformance "pass/fail" mph factor. The only thing they were limiting was the conformance of balls that went farther than 298 yards at 109mph clubhead speed.

[A_Clay_Man]

And the beat goes on...

What can be done to make the USGA more aware of the problem ?

The only way anyone listens to anyone these days is by showing them how much money it is costing them. With pro purses at all time highs, and tent revenue at the u.s open in the tens of millions, for one week, I don't see how you'll be able to do that.

It's quite clear they are aware of the issue. Isn't it?

Expecting the group, who cherishes the narrowing of fairways with long rough, much to the detriment of the design ala shinney, to appreciate the sophisticated problem of which you speak, is highly unlikely. Isn't it?

[Tim Pitner]

Don't those guys use drivers with extra long shafts, very stiff flexes, and little loft?  Conforming or not, they're not drivers that PGA Tour players would use in a tournament.

[Jay Flemma]

I dont think the USGA fears a lawsuit, but the equip manufs spend ALOT of money.  But you're right...something has to be done.  I like the idea baseball has...make it to the majors, trade metal for wood.

I'm.....Just.....Saying......

[A_Clay_Man]

How do you know Jack Nicklaus would have been incapable of carrying the ball 260 yds when given the opportunity to let it rip at a grid with nothing on the line?  

Kevin, He actually did that exact thing in 1962 at Thornridge CC outside Chicago. Playing in a Monday non-event, the temperature all of a sudden dropped 30 degrees and the wind raged from the west. Jack hit his 3-wood 362 yards.

[Kevin_Reilly]

How do you know Jack Nicklaus would have been incapable of carrying the ball 260 yds when given the opportunity to let it rip at a grid with nothing on the line?  

Kevin, He actually did that exact thing in 1962 at Thornridge CC outside Chicago. Playing in a Monday non-event, the temperature all of a sudden dropped 30 degrees and the wind raged from the west. Jack hit his 3-wood 362 yards.

Was it at night?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

What happens on the LDA today manifests itself on the golf course within 5 years

There were a lot of good swings out there.
One fellow was on one of the Pro Tours, so he's no slouch, no weightlifter turned golfer, he is a golfer.

What you miss is that hi-tech allows you to swing as hard as you want with little clubface deviation.

In 1960-70-80 noone ever heard of launch angles and spin rates.

Rick Barry couldn't hit it close to 300 with 1960 equipment.
You can now swing as hard as you want and the ball goes straighter because the clubface is huge, and the spin rates minimal.

With respect to Nicklaus, he hit it as hard as he could on many occassions, but, the ball and equipment he played, limited his distance.

I've got some old woods from the 60's and 70's and if I look hard enough, maybe I can find a ball from the 80's.
I'd like to see any of those fellows hit a golf ball 300 let alone 350 with my shallow faced driver.

You're too young to remember, but, Maxfli's used to go out of round with a good drive.  I'd like to see them hit a few of them.  The ball flight would look like a Hoyt Wilhelm special, and distance would be severely limited.

You and others may continue to remain in denial.

TEPaul,

How quickly you've forgotten that young boy playing in the Nebraska State Amateru at Wild Horse.

Were there any kids 16 or 17 who could fly it 50 yards past Nicklaus when you were growing up ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don't those guys use drivers with extra long shafts, very stiff flexes, and little loft?  Conforming or not, they're not drivers that PGA Tour players would use in a tournament.

Of course they are.

They had all the specs for each players equipment and they all conformed to USGA specs.

They had information on the shafts, the heads, the flexes, lengths, clubhead speed, spin, launch angle.

The USGA legislated limits on shaft lengths.

Look at the drivers on the PGA tour and tell me how they differ from the drivers on the LDA.

The LDA is a proving ground.

You and others can continue to keep your head in the sand, but, the product of the continuation of hi-tech is increasing distance, and the obsolescense of courses like Maidstone, CPC, NGLA, PV and all of the great classic courses.

[Kevin_Reilly]

From Sean Fister (this year's winner):

When I started out in long driving, persimmon drivers were still around. To this day the longest drive I've ever hit was with a Bert Dargie persimmon driver with a steel shaft. With a 40-mile-per-hour wind at my back and a firm fairway, I drove the ball three yards past the hole on a straightaway, 512-yard hole. Could have been a triple eagle, a hole-in-one on a par 5. But I pulled it a bit.

I don't know how he managed to hit it that far with a persimmon.  Maybe the fact that he is 6'5" and 245 lbs and has a good move through the ball?

[Jordan Wall]

This is just great.

Yesterday in my highschool tournament a 17 year old kid drove a straightaway, 344 yard hole.

Yep, this is just phenominal.

 

[Kevin_Reilly]

Look at the drivers on the PGA tour and tell me how they differ from the drivers on the LDA.

From Fister:

My driver heads have anywhere from 3 to 6 degrees of loft, which doesn't sound like much. But I try to hit the ball slightly on the upswing, and the shaft kicks the head forward before impact, and that adds even more loft. It takes serious swing speed to take advantage of those factors. The average player would be lucky to hit anything more than a line drive with one of my clubs.

Here's one difference between the drivers on tour and the drivers on LDA ... about 6 degrees of loft.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This is just great.

Yesterday in my highschool tournament a 17 year old kid drove a straightaway, 344 yard hole.

Yep, this is just phenominal.

 

I saw this chain of events starting 25 yrs ago in a senior tournament at Harding Park, when 55 yr old George Bayer came within 10 yards of the par 4 fifth hole with his drive.  

[Jordan Wall]

This is just great.

Yesterday in my highschool tournament a 17 year old kid drove a straightaway, 344 yard hole.

Yep, this is just phenominal.

 

I saw this chain of events starting 25 yrs ago in a senior tournament at Harding Park, when 55 yr old George Bayer came within 10 yards of the par 4 fifth hole with his drive.  

This same kid played the par-5's at -4 too.

7-iron into the 516 yard hole.
6-iron into the 494 yard hole.
5-iron into the 505, beast hole.
3-iron into the 525 yard hole.

All with some wind, but man.
Simply unbelievable.
Mind Boggling.

And, most of all.  Outta control.

Also, we played a 228 yard par-3, uphill, and into a 30mph wind.  He takes a 4-iron, and puts it 20feet.
I take a driver and make 4.
wow.

[PThomas]

Paul T,

If they were aware of it, they would have increased the swing speed of the model to 130-145 mph.

Patrick:  I think they are aware of things, they just choose not to do anything about it

[JLahrman]

I flashed back to Nicklaus in his prime, the greatest golfer of all time.   Nicklaus wasn't known to carry the ball 260 yards, especially at night in cool, dense air.  

And yet, here was this fellow hitting it [size=8x]50 %[/size] further than Nicklaus on his best days.

According to Walker Inman, Nicklaus used to drive the ball into the front left bunker on #7 at Scioto.  260 wouldn't get him there, even with plenty of roll.

While the distance issue is a big one, I don't believe that comparing ball flights of PGA pros to long drive competitors is the best way to illustrate the difference.  Their swings are made for different purposes.  While 390 is a lot longer than Nicklaus used to carry it, it's also a lot longer than today's tour pros carry it.  Again, not meaning to palliate the distance issue, but it's not the best way to make comparisons in my opinion.

The USGA is aware of the problem...what is the best way to make them more aware?  I don't know...let your membership expire?  For better players, refuse to enter their competitions?

[David Panzarasa]

There are a couple of reason for this I believe...First the long drive is just a different animal all together. The equipment is made for just that, and the people that are hitting the balls are not your normal golfers. Half of them were never golfers until about a year before entering the long drive.
 That being said, many people really dont want to hear it, but different people are playing golf now. It is not the little wimpy guy that was brought up playing golf and tennis and private schools and such anylonger. Your seeing real athletes playing this now. Just look at some of these long drive people from the contest, a lot of them just started to pick golf up now. But they were baseball players or some other type of sport where they were working out a ton. you dont have the overweight, smoker and drinker as the poster person for golf now. Just look at these long hitters, they are built differently now and are working out differently. It is like this in every sport as well.
 Take a look a Basketball....look at the clips of the guys playing back in the day..the best ones back in the day like earl monroe, clyde frazier, oscar robertson, the little point guard from the celtics, barry....they serious look as if they are just learning to dribble the ball if you watch them. shooting very oddly....now look at today and see these beasts that are 6-6 to 6-11 dribbling the ball like it is a piece of their body and shooting touch. Football you can say the same, baseball my god (my favorite sport) look at the pitchers from then and now. it is not even close.
 Basically, equipment helps for sure. but not that drastically in my opinion. They are more forgiving, and easier to hit now, but it is people taking care of their bodies, working out, and just a different athlete playing the golf.
Basketball their still using the same type of ball and measurements, baseball is still a wooden bat and ball and glove, football is even more equipment and same ball and the players are faster and stronger and bigger....these people are all better. just look at past tapes to today's tapes. it is obvious. golf is the same, better athlete is playing golf now. Jack might have been the best ever and people say he was the longest back then and if he played today he would be the longest now,,,but is that true? Jack was the longest back then because he was playing against people that were not as good and athletic as today. people that were not working out and using science in their bodies.
 Maybe if you put Tiger Woods back in Jacks time and Tiger lived the same type of lifestyle the golfers did then, do you really think he would be "THE" Tiger Woods? He would not be in the shape he is now, not even close.  
just my opinion

[Michael Moore]

How many drives does each contestant get ?

What is the consequence of an errant drive in a long driving contest ?

What is the relevance of a long driving contest absent scorecard consequences ?

[Eric Franzen]

From the wikipedia entry about longdriving:

Long drive is done on a level target grid about 35 to 55 m (40 to 60 yd) wide instead of on a course. Competitors are given a set number of attempts, usually from 3 to 6, to hit the ball as far as possible within the grid. A shot must land within the grid for the distance to be counted; otherwise, it is counted Out-of-Bounds (OB).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_driving

[Matt_Cohn]

Pat,

Have the increases in the NLD guys' driving distances been proportional to PGA Tour players' increases in distance?

[Bryan Izatt]

The LDA is a proving ground.

 A proving ground for what?  That if you swing superhumanly fast, with a low loft driver and hit a Pinnacle on the upswing to launch it high with low spin, the ball will go far?  None of the equipment they use would be even remotely useful to us mere mortals, or even tour pros.  Have you ever tried to hit a XXX shaft?


You and others can continue to keep your head in the sand, but, the product of the continuation of hi-tech is increasing distance, and the obsolescense of courses like Maidstone, CPC, NGLA, PV and all of the great classic courses.

When was the last time a major was held at Maidstone, CPC, NGLA, or PV?  Or a tour event?  How are they obsolescent for their members or for the tournaments that are played there?

Everybody agrees that players today hit the ball further than they did 15 or 50 years ago.  Most would agree that there are a number of contributing factors including the ball and equipment.  It seems evident that the USGA is aware of this, and that they are looking at approaches to dealing with it, as they have been doing over the last few years.  It's evident that some classic courses are obsolescent from a PGA Tour venue point of view.  But, that horse is already out of the barn.  It's gonna be hard to turn back the clock, much as some would wish it.

How is what the LDA side show freaks of nature do have any bearing on these issues.  Just think, if the USGA set the ODS standard at 300 yards for a swing speed of 155 mph swing, you and I might be able to crank one out there to 200 yards every now and then.  Now that would really be fun.  We might have to move up at set of tee blocks.