Tee on the back of a green?

[TEPaul]

Has anyone ever heard of a tee on the back of a green? I'm talking about greenspace here, not just behind greenspace. I know the orginal 2nd tee at NGLA was at the back of the 1st green but the tee obviously wasn't greenspace.

I have seen tees that were maintained like greens with practice putting pins on the back of the tee (Metedeconk) but I don't know that I've ever heard of the greenspace on the back of a green doubling as a tee for the next hole (obviously for driver use only ).

Have you?

[Brad Klein]

8th green / 9th tee at Boston Golf Club

[wsmorrison]

I don't know if it is officially part of the green, Tom.  But the 10th tee at Merion West is cut at green height just in back of the 9th green.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  I've seen it a few times, mostly on newer courses.  But the "green" space used for a tee is never really used for cupping space, because even a decent player occasionally scrapes the tee with his driver.

The Creek Club was talking about using the back of the eleventh green as a back-tee option for the 12th hole a few years back, but I don't know if they ever played it that way.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I don't believe #10 tee has ever been cut at greenspace height----it simply melds off the back of #9 green with a cut height the same as the tee cut height.

TomD:

What I'm talking about is greenspace. They were talking about just planting some tee markers on the actual greenspace on the back of a putting green. This isn't tee or chipping area cut height, it's the putting green.

"The Creek Club was talking about using the back of the eleventh green as a back-tee option for the 12th hole a few years back, but I don't know if they ever played it that way."

Funny you should say that!

Other areas discussed were using the rear of #8 tee for a new tip tee for #13 or even using the croquet surface as a new tip on #6. I even mentioned one could walk immediately left off the back of the redan to a flat spot next to the road and add about 55-60 yards to #9!!

I said the good news on most of those suggestions is at least the investment amount is damn fine.

[archie_struthers]

 

Did Tom Doak turn fifty yet?  LOL!

How about Atlantic City CC, the practice green is the back tee on numero uno.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I think you're right.  Sorry.

Part of a practice tee at Merion East is now used for the back tee on 14 for big tournaments.  Looks like its going to get some use over the rest of this decade.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I believe the original Aronimink Course designed by Tillinghast and done away with when the Ross course was built had at least one. I remember seeing a photograph of a tee box on the back right side of a green that was an extension outward from the putting surface and maintained as such. I'll look through my photo files and see what i can come up with for you.

[Evan_Green]

The Black tee on the first hole of the Olympic Club Ocean Course is literally on the left edge of the large practice putting green in front of the pro shop. The part of the practice green that is used for the tee is cut to the same height as the rest of that green.

It's good incentive not to hit your tee shot fat while everyone on the practice green looks on!!

Incidently, it makes for some good putting matches when the tee is clear- e.g. you have to hit one of the tee blocks before you can shoot for the hole.

[TEPaul]

I just remembered one that GeoffShac believes may've been this kind of thing----a tee for #10 Cypress on the back of basically the third tier of the super cool 9th green that once may've been greenspace.

[Bill Gayne]

At the Open last summer, the 18th tee was nothing more than an extension of the 17th green.

[Jay Flemma]

There's one at the gailes course at Lakewood shores up in michigan...I think its 5-6...

[John_Cullum]

... They were talking about just planting some tee markers on the actual greenspace on the back of a putting green. This isn't tee or chipping area cut height, it's the putting green.

....

How do we reconcile this?

25-3 Wrong Putting Green
 a. Interference
Interference by a wrong putting green occurs when a ball is on the wrong putting green.
Interference to a player's stance or the area of his intended swing is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.
 b. Relief
If a player's ball lies on a wrong putting green he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief,

[TEPaul]

John Cullum:

Interesting Rules points. I have no idea how it would be reconciled in a Rules context. How do you explain the fact that there are "local" rules on scorecards all over the place defining areas as "waste areas" but the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf refuses to define or even acknowledge such a thing and probably always will?

[Jason Topp]

The first tee at Rochester Country Club in Minnesota (Tillinghast) was on the putting green when I was in college.  A guy on my team took huge divots and I just cringed when he took an iron out on a wet day.  He must have cringed as well because he hit a weak thinned iron without a divot.

[Bill_McBride]

The back back back tee on #1 at Apache Stronghold is on the practice putting green.

[Jordan Wall]

Does this count??

This is 5 tee on back of 4 (I think) at Sand Hills.

[Jim Franklin]

I thought the first time I played Oakmont that the 15th tee was part of the 14th green. I know it has been lengthened so it is not the case anymore.

[Doug Sobieski]

The first tee on The New Course at Grand Cypress in Orlando was on the practice green. I haven't been there in 10+ years, but I hope it hasn't changed.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't know exactly what the qualifications are, but the 18th tee at Moraine is about two steps away from the pin in some cases. I think the grass is a little different, but it is awfully close, it flows right into the tee.

[John_Cullum]

John Cullum:

Interesting Rules points. I have no idea how it would be reconciled in a Rules context. How do you explain the fact that there are "local" rules on scorecards all over the place defining areas as "waste areas" but the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf refuses to define or even acknowledge such a thing and probably always will?

Tom P

I will not undertake to speculate on how or why the USGA and R and A do things.

As far as placing the tee as mentioned in the above posts, it is necessary that there be some demarcation between a putting green and a tee. A player cannot lift and clean a ball that is on another tee or through the green, nor can you play a ball that is on a wrong putting green as stated in rule 25-3. It could be maintained just like the adjoining putting green, but there would have to be markers of some kind to seperate the areas.

[TEPaul]

I also forgot the newest wrinkle in combined greenspace tees. It's the new tip tee on Merion's #14 that they used in the US Amateur. That tee is on the far side of the new practice putting green. However, for the US Amateur apparently they grew that practice putting green section to tee cut height, and when the Amateur was over I guess they mowed it back to practice putting green height.

[grandwazo]

The 1st tee at North Shore on Long Island and the practice green are one continuous area.  I believe the majority of the course is still the original Tillinghast design.

There was some discussion and it is a possiblity that at some point in the future, when we finally get around to moving what was our 10th tee and is now our 1st tee that we will have the same feature at Muttontown, in addition to another practice green next to our driving range.

It works very nicely at North Shore, which gets limited play, I'm not sure how it would work anyplace that gets more play.

BTW, Kelly's work is coming along beautifully, in spite of every obstacle that our general membership and board could put in his way.  I hope to post pictures of some absolutely beautiful green complexes shortly.

[TEPaul]

JohnC:

As far as violating Rule 25-3 by using greenspace for a tee on another hole I'd say that's just something the Rules of Golf has not yet contemplated to the extent of including something in the Rules for it.

I'm pretty sure the Rules makers wouldn't have any real issue with this kind of thing and would probably simply write a Decision to cover it or perhaps just make an "exception" to Rule 25-3 to accomodate it.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

How do we reconcile this?

25-3 Wrong Putting Green
 a. Interference
Interference by a wrong putting green occurs when a ball is on the wrong putting green.
Interference to a player's stance or the area of his intended swing is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.
 b. Relief
If a player's ball lies on a wrong putting green he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief,

The ball is not just "on the wrong putting green". It's on a tee on the wrong putting green. Totally different, obviously.