It's official: NGLA to be par 72

[Gene Greco]

  # 5 will officially be changed from a par of 5 to one of 4.

Therefore, overall par will change from 73 to 72.

All will be in force after the last of the old score cards are used.

[TEPaul]

On reflection--I don't agree with that.

I think the course should leave the regular or "official" card the way it's always been (73) and simply print alternate cards for the course of 72 (#5), 71 (#5, #7) and 70 (#5, #7, #18). 90% of the membership can't play #5 as a par 4. Futhermore if the prototype hole for #7--eg #17 TOC can drop it's par for good players so can #7 NGLA which happens to be the exact same yardage as TOC's Road Hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

For once, I completely agree with you.

At 478 yards, "Hog's Back" is a great little par 5, especially into the prevailing wind.

I think it's a terrible concession to out of control distance.

We continue to disagree regarding # 7.

Distance has rendered the "Hotel" bunker complex and the resultant play of the hole, obsolete.

This is a hole where an extra 20-30 yards would bring CBM's famous feature, the "Hotel" bunker complex, and the strategies for avoiding it, back into play.

But, you're batting 50 % tonight which is 48 % higher than your norm.

P.S.  Did you send your entry in for the Singles ?
       

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
For once, I completely agree with you.
At 478 yards, "Hog's Back" is a great little par 5, especially into the prevailing wind.
I think it's a terrible concession to out of control distance."

Well. Patrick, in that case all is forgiven.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Why don't we take a good look at # 5, # 7, # 9 and # 18 when we're there.

Why not do so during a practice round ?
Or, a walk around prior to a practice round might be even better.

DID YOU SEND YOUR ENTRY IN ?

IF NOT DO SO IMMEDIATELY.

[Gene Greco]

    Yesterday, that fine southern gentleman, Bogey Hendren, a Pebble Beach affecianado,  MIGHT have conceded #18 as being THE all-time best finisher.

Of course, Bogey's statements regarding #18 must not be taken out of context so we must wait for his input to confirm what I THOUGHT I heard.

[Mike Hendren]

   Yesterday, that fine southern gentleman, Bogey Hendren, a Pebble Beach affecianado,  MIGHT have conceded #18 as being THE all-time best finisher.

Of course, Bogey's statements regarding #18 must not be taken out of context so we must wait for his input to confirm what I THOUGHT I heard.

Gene,

I said it.
I meant it.
I believe it.

Simply phenomenal.

Mike

[Punchbowl]

It creates a necessary blind shot to the green to make par.  The blind aspect was not as big a deal when you were laying up or giving it a go for the green without big expectations of ending up on the green.

[ChasLawler]

TEPaul,

For once, I completely agree with you.
     

Tom and Pat,
What does calling the hole a par 4 really change?

[JESII]

Expectations.

I think in a vacuum it does not matter, but as soon as you're in between clubs on the second shot all the sudden birdie, par or bogey certainly get into the conversation.

[ChasLawler]

Exactly...expectations.

It's simply a brilliant mind-f__k.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cabell Ackerly,

What changes, your score relative to par.

It's a hard par 4, a very hard par 4 into the prevailing wind.

I'd rather make a par on a hole versus a bogey.

I'd rather not walk to the 6th tee frustrated by a bogey or angry over a double bogey.

[ChasLawler]

Patrick Mucci,
It appears that you and I disagree on the relevance of par.

Personally I don't think par means much..or rather - I don't think it should mean much.

To each his own though....

[TEPaul]

"Tom and Pat,
What does calling the hole a par 4 really change?"

Cabell:

Nothing about the hole is going to change except the preception of it. You just watch---in a month good players will be thinking of that hole as a good and strong one  compared to the way they used to look at it as a weak hole as par 5. Logically that doesn't make much sense but that's the way these things are.  

[ChasLawler]

Tom - I agree wholeheartedly...and I think it's a shame golfers think that way.

Next thing you know, they'll want to change the handicap designation of that hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick Mucci,
It appears that you and I disagree on the relevance of par.

Personally I don't think par means much..or rather - I don't think it should mean much.

To each his own though....

How much tournament golf at stroke play do you play ?[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

You surprise me here.

Outside of stableford competitions, what score wins a stroke play tournament?

Over 72 holes, it's not "minus this" or "plus that" - it's a number like 288.

Thus while I have absolutely no doubt that MANY fall prey to this perception issue re par, I'm just damn surprised YOU do.  My image of you as a feisty tough competitor just took a hit.

 

[Chris Kane]

Patrick Mucci,
It appears that you and I disagree on the relevance of par.

Personally I don't think par means much..or rather - I don't think it should mean much.

To each his own though....

How much tournament golf at stroke play do you play ?[/color]

Patrick, how is the par truly relevant to strokeplay?  In strokeplay you add your score up at the end of the round, and the lowest score wins.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris:

Great minds.  

My crap aside, Patrick is a very tough player with a damn fine resume of competitive success as you probably know.  He just has some 'splainin to do on this issue.  I have no doubt he will provide such.

TH

[ChasLawler]

How much tournament golf at stroke play do you play ?[/color]

Probably not as much as you, but I think Chris and Tom have summed up my position pretty well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

When you watch TV every week, do you notice that they post numbers in RED and BLACK.

Par is a scoring benchmark, and giving a shot back to par has a negative connotation.   In scoring and in your frame of mind, which, may be the most important asset a golfer has.

I know more then a few fellows who walk off a green with a far more positive outlook on the hole they just played and the holes that lie ahead when they make par or birdie versus bogey or worse.

Now do you get it ?

With respect to match play, one only needs to beat his head to head opponent, not the field.

Chris,

The last time I looked, you play one hole at a time, not all 18 at once.

While it may be convenient to apply 20-20 hindsight to a round, golf is played one hole at a time, and the way you play and score on each hole can have an effect on the holes that lie ahead.

[Jordan Wall]

Also, Par-5's are usually designed differently then par-4's.

For instance, there is a lay-up area, and also a narrow opening in the fairway that would give the gambling player a chance to hit the green in two (at least some design aspects used in par-5's but not usually on par-4's).

Because par is changed, how the hole is played is changed.
It is just how we think.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan, et. al.,

Let's face it, the pressure to perform, to play and make a par increases dramatically when you just change the par from 5 to 4.

Par remains a benchmark for performance.

It's cavalier nonsense to think that par doesn't matter in stroke play competition.

Tom Huckaby,

Suppose Dick Youngscap, at my suggestion, changed the par on # 1 to a 4.

Do you think that might influence your play and your attitude as you stand on the 1st tee ?

How about as you stand on the 2nd tee ?

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, the difficulty of all eighteen holes in relation to their par varies.  For example, on Royal Melbourne (West), a good player expects to be at least two under after four holes, as there are very short fives at 2 and 4, and a lob wedge approach on 3.  Competitors in the Masters tournament would be very disappointed to take any more than eight shots on 13 and 15, would they not?

Its an arbitary figure, but a golfer is not necessarily going to be content with a par-5, but disappointed in a bogey-5.

I havn't had the opportunity to play at NGLA, so I'm not familar with the context of the hole where par has changed from 5 to 4.  Would the good player consider a 5 to be a dropped shot to the field?  What are the holes played before and after it (this is important)?

[TEPaul]

Patrick;

I just hope I'm reading you or understanding you incorrectly.

If you actuallly think the way an intelligent golfer plays a golf hole that does not change an iota other than the fact that its par number is dropped is beyond my comprehension. If the risks and rewards of the hole don't change at all why should the way any intelligent golfer plays the hole change?