Are Par 4.5s Better Rounded Up or Down?

[Brian Walshe]

Thommo,

13 isn't a bad hole.  The last 200 odd metres and green complex are excellent.  I just find the first 250m forced and the only place on the routing that feels that way.  It is also the only place you can actually notice earth was moved.  The fact that there was thoughts of having the tee high and left suggests there was some compromise involved.  

If you can't get home in two and the risk is off the tee not on the 2nd (there's a paddock for that) then why up the risk by hitting driver?  Again Thommo, you've played it once down wind, we can talk again after you've played the hole into it.  The first time I played 8 at BD I (like Ogilvy it would seem) hit wedge in.  Mind you there was a hurricane behind us.    The next 4 rounds were into it and my view on the hole changed a bit.

[Andrew Thomson]

the fairway is 100m wide and the further you hit it, the wider it gets - so why hit a shorter club?

The risk off the tee on 13 is being short wind or no wind.

[Tyler Kearns]

The remark about 1 being blind was in response to Tyler's remark suggesting that the green would be blind and therefore and issue if moved back on 12.  I was merely pointing out that 1 was blind as is, so blind shots shouldn't be an issue.

Brian,

Blind holes or shots are not ideal (functionally), but they can be a lot of fun if done properly. In regards to the 12th, it would seem like an opportunity lost to create a blind approach by overlooking a natural green site. The first hole at St. Andrews Beach is only blind if you do not look at the pin position from the elevated tee, and if you do not challenge the right hand side fairway bunker at the second landing area.

TK

[Brian Walshe]

Tyler,

I must check out the view from the tee next time - I can't remember being able to see the flag.  As for natural greens sites - in that piece of land my guess is that there were so many it made routing difficult.  No doubt Tom had another dozen terrific sites that he couldn't get into the routing.  I must have a look to see what's around the 13th tee next time - you never know your luck.

[Andrew Thomson]

Brian,

You are getting on a little.  If you want to see the flag from the tee on 1 do take your binoculars  

[Mark_F]

I must check out the view from the tee next time - I can't remember being able to see the flag.  

If you had read the My Home Course preview you would have been wise to what is going on.

Not everything I write is histrionic, abusive vitriol, you know.

Free course tip:  You also need to check out the flags from the tee on 9, 15 and 17 too.

[Chris Kane]

Free course tip:  You also need to check out the flags from the tee on 9, 15 and 17 too.

So this is ok at St Andrews Beach, but a flaw on 6 at Kingston Heath?

[Mark_F]

Chris,

You need to go back and read what I wrote.

I stated that the contours on KH 6 green wouldn't allow you to get a ball near if you took the ideal line from the tee.

None of Gunnamatta's greens on the hole's I mentioned do that.

David Elvins pointed out, quite rightly, that you can check out the green beforehand.

Fair enough.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

Surely the ideal line from the tee on KH 6th depends on where the pin is.
It it's back left you go right by the bunkers and hit a bouncing draw back to the flag - and if it's right you drive left and hit a fade. It's no harder to hit the ball close to the flag at 6 than any one of 10 other holes there.

Either way the middle of the fairway is not the ideal line.

[gookin]

I agree totally that how the hole is positioned makes all the difference in rounding up or down.  At Fox Chapel, we have three 4.5s all on the front nine. # 2 and 4 both play about 480 with #2 a par 5 and #4 a par 4.  In between is our Eden which has been lengthen to 205 (perhaps another topic).  Most players feel a strong need to make 4 on two to set up a good round.  It is a tough 4 but an easy 5 and in the back of players minds they know a difficult #4 is just ahead.  A similar situation occurs on #7 and #8.  #7 is a 285 par four with a green guarded by mounds covered with 6 inch rough.  It is a poor man's alps.  Again the stonger player feels the need to make 3 to be in better position to deal with #8.  #8 plays as a par 4 at 475. The hole starts from and elevated tee and plays to a very large elevated green. The green is protected on the right half by a classic steep faced Raynor bunker.  The face of the bunker is about 10 feet high. A back right pin offers a significant challenge for any player. However the slope of the green does allow a player to shape his shot from left to right to avoid going directly over this bunker. Over the years this hole has been played as a 5.  Again I think how these 4.5s are positioned adds a lot to the way our couse unfolds for the player.

[Gordon Oneil]

IMHO, there are two fixations at work here that most golfers would do themselves a tremendous service to somehow rid themselves of.  The first has already been discussed, the havoc that a number on a scorecard wreaks on the psyche of the majority of players.  The second seems so simple to correct though it contributes to the discussion of golf course architecture here.  It also is largely responsible for the horrible problem of slow play.
If a particular hole or the majority of holes on a particular course are unreachable, too difficult or unfair for a particular player, SWALLOW YOUR EGO AND PLAY A FORWARD SET OF TEES, FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Don't you think most every player that tees it up is better served, for lack of a better phrase, to play that the 485 yard par 4.99999 from the forward distance of 405?
Or are we just not real men unless we get to experience the joy of putting that X on the scorecard just below the 4 in the Par column?

[Travis Ripley]

to the original question, as a big fan of Perry Maxwell....he will give you one of each.  rounded up and rounded down.  a par 4 and par 5.  

 

[Kevin Pallier]

So long as the bias isn't too one-sided - I'm not bothered.

I know it's been discussed at length here but as for the 13th at SAB - I think the last 150m to the green complex is superb the only thing I dislike is the fall-off to the left on the drive. Wind or no wind I think it's too penal for a semi-blind drive on such a long hole.

[James_Livingston]

If a particular hole or the majority of holes on a particular course are unreachable, too difficult or unfair for a particular player, SWALLOW YOUR EGO AND PLAY A FORWARD SET OF TEES, FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Don't you think most every player that tees it up is better served, for lack of a better phrase, to play that the 485 yard par 4.99999 from the forward distance of 405?
Or are we just not real men unless we get to experience the joy of putting that X on the scorecard just below the 4 in the Par column?

I'm always puzzled by this argument as when playing competitive rounds (ie, the bulk of rounds for club golfers, at least in Oz), you simply don't have the option of choosing the tees you play from.  Not a comment on 13 at StAB, but designers really do need to provide options for all players as, in the case of private membership clubs at least, the hole will regularly be played from the back pegs by everyone in the field.

[Mark_F]

but as for the 13th at SAB - I think the last 150m to the green complex is superb

Oh my god,

ANOTHER paid up member - presumably the secretary is Chris Kane? - of the Brian Walshe "The first 307 metres are crap" club.

Kevin,

If you don't like the fall off to the left of the drive, don't go near it. As Thommo says, there must be 100 metres of fairway right of that.

Apparently I am no good at measuring things, so we will have to take the young bloke's estimate as gospel, despite his modern education.

James,

Why don't club players have the options of choosing which tees to play from?  

I thought the tees played depended on handicap in club comps?

[Chris Kane]

I thought the tees played depended on handicap in club comps?

The only club I can think of where that applies is The National, because the courses are nigh on impossible for someone who hits it 150.  Every other club I know of has all members playing from the tips in the monthly medal.  If you're building a member's course, its a black mark if it the tips can't be used for the whole field.  St Andrews Beach gets it right 17/18 times.

[Brian Walshe]

Chris,

The US is different from Australia in that there is no "competition" with a defined set of tees and need for a marked card on a given day.  You simply can't play a different set of tees because of your ability if you are playing in a comp in Australia.  We use a CCR rather than a slope rating. The National runs 3 different competitions on one Saturday a month for the "Monthly Medal".  A Grade will play off the tips on one course and B grade and C grade will play off the appropriate tees on the other two courses.  Other than Medal rounds everyone plays off the same tees.  At StAB all players would have to play off the same tees in the comp.

Mark and Thommo,

How about I pay you two $10 for every metre over 100m in width at 220m off the tee on 13 at StAB and you guys pay me $10 a metre for every metre under 100m???  Deal?

[Chris Kane]

How about I pay you two $10 for every metre over 100m in width at 220m off the tee on 13 at StAB and you guys pay me $10 a metre for every metre under 100m???  Deal?

Another get rich quick scheme Walshey?

[Matthew Mollica]

There's little doubt in my mind that fairway is less than 100m wide, at ANY point short of 230m. Maybe it's the Oakleys I wear, but I don't see 100m there. If it is, call me Asafa Powell, because I'll run it in sub-10 seconds.

MM

[Andrew Thomson]

I said 100m to make a point - it's well over 70m - if that isn't wide enough just play 7 & 8 all day!

I'd be prepared to say its definately wider than the first, which when standing on the tee looks unmissable.  (For the record, my 4 on the day I played was myself, Dave Elvins, Mark Ferguson and Shane Gurnett - none of us hit the fairway on the 1st   )

And yes it should be wider than the first given the slope of the fairway.

Oh well, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Andrew Thomson]

by the way, I was just browsing old threads and came accross the quote below.  It seems the only bloke who agrees with me about 13, besides the two designers had a rapid change of heart on the hole in the last few months!

Interestingly also, is that both courses have an (excessively) long par four to torture. On the Moonah course, it's all of 447 metres, slightly uphill to boot, and into the prevailing wind.  On Gunnamatta, its 452 metres, with a blind drive and 90% of the time into a howling gale so strong members really need mountain climbing cleats on their shoes to stay afoot. Neither work as par fours, or par fives for that matter. Pity, as there is a much better potential tee location at Gunnamatta than the two already there that would make it the hole it should be.

Mark Ferguson Dec 24, 2005

I'll be driving this bandwagon alone from now on  

[Brian Walshe]

Thommo,

It would appear that the bandwagon has become a unicycle.  I think there are a few more dollars that I might yet get my hands on in addition to the $300 you admit to.

[Chris Kane]

despite his modern education

Mark, I'd take Thommo's world-class education (except for that cesspool Scotch) over your Deakin education anyday!

[Andrew Thomson]

Brian,

Is 70m not wide enough?

Perhaps you should stick to the range from now on!  

[Mark_F]

Chris,
Deakin AND Griffith, with a touch of Monash too, thank you.  

And let's not forget Diamo Tech...

If Thommo is so much smarter than I, then why does he live in Queensland?  

What's so bad about Scotch

Thommo:
That howling gale stuff was poetic licence.  In 70-odd rounds, I've only played three times in those conditions, although, yes, it is generally into a quartering headwind.

I like the blind drive, and the need to fashion the correct shot to hold the fairway; my comments on why it doesn't work as a par four are solely because of it's length.  It's very difficult for the average player to hit it far enough to get to the plateau and have that amazing second across all that unfolding ground to the green.  

You, of course, don't have that problem, and I venture to say you wouldn't even into a three club headwind.

I am happy to take five there, but I don't think it works as a par five.

The unicycle is now a two-wheeler again.