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Patrick_Mucci

Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« on: May 02, 2006, 01:07:16 PM »
Would a developer select a brain or heart surgeon who had no previous experience ?

One who entered the profession as a hobby ?

One who was going to dabble at the profession ?

Why do developers hire PGA Tour professionals with no prior design experience ?

Do they feel that the name will override the product ?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 01:07:53 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2006, 01:24:37 PM »
Patrick,

All PGA Tour players with a golf design firm have experienced design professionals working at their office. The client often hires the player for the marketable name, but know that a quality product (not speaking strategically) will be produced by the staff working behind the scenes.

TK
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Paul Payne

Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2006, 01:25:19 PM »
Names sell. At least here in the states.

Pat,

I could likely be wrong but didn't MacKenzie get into the profession as a hobby?
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ForkaB

Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2006, 01:33:54 PM »
If you believe Tom Doak's book, you wouldn't have wanted MacKenzie to be your doctor........
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2006, 01:35:11 PM »
Just as I don't think a person would select a surgeon without any experience, I don't think a developer would hire an architect without any experience.

The rest of the comparisons are inapposite, as persons cannot dabble in surgery, nor can they take it up as a hobby.

The disciplines are entirely different and not susceptible at all to a comparison.  Medicine is a highly regulated profession. Architecture is not.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 01:36:39 PM by SPDB »
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2006, 01:35:57 PM »
Read Pete Dye's "Bury me in a Pot Bunker."  Where would the golf world be if some of those in the early years who hired him thought differently because he sold insurance...?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 01:36:30 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2006, 04:24:19 PM »
I think a lot depends on the developer.
 If a developer is doing a high-end residential community, it is proven that the big names sell lots,houses and memberships- Nicklaus, Weiskopf, Palmer and Fazio are the prime examples.Why take chances on an unknown?
 If a developer is doing a high-end private, golf only club, then C&C and Doak are the prime examples, although some have taken chances with unknowns at the time like KBM at The Hideout in Naples, FL and David Esler at Black Sheep in IL. Certainly, Nickluas, Weiskopf, Palmer & Fazio have done high-end golf only clubs too.
 If a developer is doing a 55+ golf real estate community, then I don't think a name architect really matters from what I've seen.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2006, 06:01:14 PM »
Patrick:

Everyone on this board thinks that they could be an architect if given the chance.  How could they hold a Tour pro to a higher standard than they hold themselves?

When you are deciding on a surgeon you're contemplating life or death.  Golf course architecture just isn't that serious, for most people.  And most developers, sadly, are just as interested in marketing as they are in architecture.
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2006, 06:15:28 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 02, 2006, 06:01:14 PM
And most developers, sadly, are just as interested in marketing as they are in architecture.

Tom, in many cases if they weren't focussed on the marketing, there wouldn't be any architecture.
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2006, 06:27:03 PM »
Better yet, if you need a surgeon, make sure he won on the Pro Tour before going to medical school.

Big names sell golf course housing and greens fees.
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 07:19:10 PM »
He should hire the supt like he would hire a surgeon.....
98% of the golfers could care less about architecture...give them a tour players name and good greens and conditions.....
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2006, 07:22:33 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on May 02, 2006, 06:01:14 PM
Everyone on this board thinks that they could be an architect if given the chance.  

Then this is one deluded board.
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2006, 07:55:36 PM »
Quote from: David Kelly on May 02, 2006, 07:22:33 PM
Then this is one deluded board.

It's also a deluded comment - completely untrue and unfair.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2006, 08:07:23 PM »
As I responded to Ed Getka's thread that any three GCA regulars could design a golf course, most of us are interested bystanders and sightseers!
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2006, 08:59:34 PM »
I think they do choose the same way. Someone tells them how good the architect is, and based on that recommendation they hire them.

I bet most developers don't know good from bad architecture, much the same that I wouldn't be able to watch a surgeon and know the difference.

Apart from cosmetic surgeons, how would one know a good one from a bad one?

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2006, 09:27:34 PM »
Joe Hancock,

Mortality statistics and the number of precedures performed per year are a good begining  ;D
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 09:28:18 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2006, 10:29:41 PM »
Pat,

I suppose any surgeon with an inordinate amount of scarring on his hands or less than the intended number of fingers might be an indicator as well. ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 10:57:51 PM »
Joe Hancock,

That too would be a good indicator.

Or, if they were refered by TEPaul.

Jeff Brauer made an interesting point about "intended clientele"
and, I think your point about referal, when combined with Jeff's comment, seems logical.

Paul Payne,

I think Dr Mac transitioned from a highly educated man, enamored of the art of camoflage into an architect under the tutorage of H.S. Colt and then Alison.  In other words, he was mentored prior to creating some of his great designs.  Whether that happened osmotically, or by design, I don't know, but, he evolved over time, not as an overnight sensation.

Mike Vegis,

Like Dr Mac, Pete Dye made a career change.

Pete Dye was an architect for a number of years before he "arrived" with name designs.

He and Alice formed their design team in 1959.
If you review their body of work, you wouldn't say that they were discovered in overnight.  They evolved as a team over time.  And certainly, they didn't get big projects right off the bat.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should developers select an architect like they'd select a surgeon ?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2006, 02:31:19 PM »
I think I know a good course when I see and play it, certainly as it relates to my game.

Do I think I could be an architect? Absolutely not

I know what I like, I know holes I like, I know styles I like and I could give pictures of everything I liked to an architect that I thought were appropriate to the site, but beyond that...if you don't hold the architect in higher regard than yourself, then you are kidding yourself
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta
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