Old Kinderhook

[mark chalfant]

any thoughts re this course c.Albany ?  nice land, green complexes, well designed par fours and p. fives ?
thanks

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   Talk to Matt Ward about this one, he is very high on it. I played it once with Scott Wood, but unfortunately we were out in the middle of a deluge, so I didn't get to play it under its normal conditions. There are some very good holes out there, and there are some clunkers. There are some really cool greens, especially the one on the par 5 that doglegs right (#13?), and there are some fairly flat ones that are quite uninteresting. There is a shortish par 4 that turns right around a lake that has a really neat green. The green has a roll that cuts across that really challenges your approach shot to get to certain pins. I don't remember any bad holes. Apparently the owner had mounds built between and along holes in places for spectators for hosting big tournaments. The mounding detracts a little from the land. The property overall has some nice movement. Scott and Paul Perella are great guys and I look forward to getting back out there some day to see it on  a nice day.

[redanman]

mark

If you would return my calls (you missed out on some opportunities already this year) I would tell you about Old Kinderhook.  Try me Thursday.  IM to you.

OK is way better than "OK".

[scott_wood]

Mark, so as not to confuse  readers there are 2 courses named  "Old Kinderhook"...BUT the NY one you are discussing is OLDE Kinderhook.....the one in Missouri is (plain) Old Kinderhook..and is also a relatively newer design...,.....
Ed is has never rained that hard again!!! See you at KP...

[Mike_Sweeney]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14453&start=0

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Arguably, the best layout Rees Jones has ever done. I would also say that Olde Kinderhook could make a very good case to crack into the highly competitive top ten in The Empire State.

Superb site and very imaginative routing that eschews all the elements that Rees has overused in so many other designs. In this case -- Rees took what was present and didn't allow the urge to "help" what Mother Nature has already provided.

Olde Kinderhook is simply panned by too many people and much of that is tied to two elements -- it's general location (just south of Albany) and the man who designed it. Put the course in an area where more traffic is possible and if it's design had been by one of the more "preferred" architects here on GCA and the resulting fanfare would be far different IMHO.

[Dan_Callahan]

Matt,

Do you think that Olde Kinderhook is also hurt by the fact that it is so exclusively private? The fact that very few people have played it makes it hard to counter-balance the two knee-jerk negatives that you mention—location and architect.

My guess is that the owners don't care what other people think. They have on the ground what they set out to create.

I wonder if Rees, on the other hand, wouldn't mind the course having a higher profile since it shows a greater breadth of talent  than he has been given credit for.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

There are numerous examples of "very private" clubs but that fact should not obscure or allow for their design attributes to be cloaked from recogition when merited.

The issue with many New York people is that downstate types have this erroneous belief that only golf on the Island and in Westchester is really superb. It's nothing more than elitism on their part.

The probelm with so many anti-Rees people on this board is that once a "tag" line is applied to someone -- it seems to stay. The totality of Olde Kinderhook demonstrates, at least for me, that making long term prediction on what an architect can do is at best shaky and frankly unreliable. What I think is fair game is why Rees doesn't do more of such outstanding work?

[John Foley]

I'll jump on and defend OK as an excellent course whose routing is world class. Some very, very good holes out there in the ground which make for a very enjoyable course.

Other than some containment mounds in one spot I remember, I don't recall any feature that stands out which anyone would say that it was a Ree's Jones course.

Why would anyone claim that because it's in Albany that should be a negative factor. I don't understand that comment.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Location is often tied to bias. The northern regions of NY State are often ignored because of the multitude of quality courses in the downstate area. Keep in mind that not all of the highly touted downstate courses are that great -- many of them happen to benefit from being "in the neighborhood" of the truly superb courses.

Olde Kinderhook suffers from some of that ignorance which at times borders on stupidity.

[Jim Franklin]

When I spoke to Rees Jones in November he said Olde Kinderhook was his most underrated/overlooked course. I look forward to getting up to Albany and playing it this summer.

PS For all of the knocking RJ gets on this site, he was a very nice person and very enjoyable to talk with.

[rgkeller]

Is this a new course.

How olde is it?

[Matt_Ward]

rgkeller:

I believe Olde Kinderhook is somewhere between 5-6 years old.

I'm sure Scott or Paul can provide the exact time frame.

[Steve Curry]

I want to say its 8 years old and one of my most memorable events was at OK, great course.

Steve

[rgkeller]

>>I believe Olde Kinderhook is somewhere between 5-6 years old.<<

That's not very olde at all.

[Dan_Callahan]

I think the superfluous "e" is meant to stand for Expensive.

[rgkeller]

What is the "o-l-d" supposed to mean?

[Dan_Callahan]

Nothing. It just sounds better than if the name was simply Kinderhook.

Either that or it was some really good long-range planning. Let's face it, hundreds of years from now the course will, in fact, be old. At which point they won't have to shell out extra money to change their letterhead.

[Michael Stefanik]

I am from the Albany Area and Olde Kinderhook is the best track here north of Winged Foot.

As far as the name Olde Kinderhook it comes from term OK that President Van Buren. He used to make speeches and refer to good OK which stood for "Olde Kinderhook".

Hopefully that will clear up the name for everyone.