[ed_getka]

I spent 4 days there recently and was very impressed by the course. IMO it is one of the most well-balanced courses in the U.S. PD could be defined by three words, no let up. You have to be proficient in every aspect of the game. Any birdie is well-earned while bogey or worse is possible with just about every swing due to the gunsch. In spite of that I felt like the course was very playable and a joy to play.
   I am very interested to hear what keeps this course from being seen as the best in the country. I am not saying that it is better than Shinnecock or Pine Valley, which I haven't played, but it seems to me that any one of these three courses could make a case for #1, and it would just come down to personal preference.
   I would love to hear what you guys think.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Would you say it's better than Sand Hills?  If so, how and why?  Same goes for Cypress Point... NGLA... Oakmont... Pebble Beach...

Lots of contenders for #1 besides just Pine Valley and Shinnecock.

But let's limit it to the ones you have played.  You seem to imply that Prairie Dunes is the best.  Why?  

And note your description of PD could also be said about Sand Hills.. word for word....


IMO it is one of the most well-balanced courses in the U.S. PD could be defined by three words, no let up. You have to be proficient in every aspect of the game. Any birdie is well-earned while bogey or worse is possible with just about every swing due to the gunsch. In spite of that I felt like the course was very playable and a joy to play.


TH

 

[corey miller]

Access.  Prairie Dunes is very open to play from non members, that being the case people are much more open in their criticisms.

Relative to the other courses listed above there is much less of a wow factor.

[Tom Huckaby]

Corey - that access issue could well play into this.

As could the wow factor....

But do you think absent those Prairie Dunes is deserving of #1 talk?  Heck it's pretty constantly top 20...  This is just the first I've ever heard - even surrounding the recent high-visibility of it in USGA events - that it deserves to be thought of in the #1 category.

Interesting, for sure.

TH

[corey miller]

It is not number one.  But I am a believer that there are around 15-20 courses that one could mention as a number one and they would not get an arguement from me. Prairie Dunes fits in this grouping.  

There is a lack of wow factor for the average player but I do think a GCA type would say wow playing up #8.  Holes like #9 playing down a rumpled fairway to a wonderful green complex probably have no wow factor but are excellent holes nonetheless.

The course may be a little too punitive for the average golfer in the wind with the gunsch.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Corrie Miller,

You can't view access in one dimension.

While PD is to be praised for their guest play policies, its location doesn't make it easily accessible..

I think there is a "wow" factor.
You drive along flat land and suddenly, this rolling terrain of a golf course springs up in front of you.  It's quite dramatic.

Unfortunately, length seems to be an integral component in the rating formula, if not directly, indirectly, vis a vis a resistance to scoring, and PD may not have the length of some of the courses Ed mentioned.

PD is the type of golf course one could play every day and not tire of.

My guess is that major tournaments have an impact on ratings and that PD will gain a few notches in the not too distant future.

[Tom Huckaby]

Corey - cool - I can understand that.  In fact Gene Greco had a great way to look at this - similar to what you just wrote - there are 15-20 courses that all COULD be #1, and like Ed says from there it's just personal preference.  I just never had heard Prairie Dunes before even listed in that 15-20.  Sounds to me like it should be.

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

It will be interesting to see how it stands up to the Seniors at their Open - I know that Five Farms is going to be lengthened in order to host the Senior Players Championship.  Do courses of this quality really need length to be a challenge or do they need the right conditions?

[corey miller]

I think the Senior's should walk out and play PD with no changes at all.  anything close to normal conditions will be quite a test regardless of length.  

I happen to agree with Pat in that the area is quite dramatic but I am not sure that is the view of the average american golfer.

Maybe it should be a different topic but the most under appreciated feature by the masses is uneven lies and rumpled fairways.

[Steve Lapper]

Prairie Dunes is most definitely a top 20 course...not even a doubt. It is, as said before, an extremely well balanced course that might seriously challenge the perennial top 5-10 tracks if it didn't have 1-3 lesser holes. Mind you, these such holes are neither poor nor misfits. They are just weaker sisters to the others. Frankly, Sand Hills with it's inherhent elevation changes is just a more complete course.

Jerry's question about length or conditions is simple. The course will, if the wind is nil or abnormally benign, still play plenty fast & firm, but might yield relatively low #'s (4-8 under). If the summer wind is present, the place needs nothing more than a lawn chair and a fresh beer to sit back and enjoy the frustration the seniors will have with trying to score well here. No further distance is necessary here.

PS...my $$$ is on Gentle Ben this year...it should be fun to see.

[Mark Arata]

I wouldnt say there is a lack of a wow factor there, it is a beautiful course, dare I say majestic even.....Ocean views are nice too, but this course has a wow factor of its own.

Personally, I think it is downplayed because it is in Kansas. If this course was in the northeast or west coast it would be in the top 5 IMHO.

I havent played enough of the top 10 to say if it is better than the rest, but it is an amazing course, and it deserves to be in the same discussion with the top courses in the US.

[Chris_Clouser]

Prairie Dunes not having a wow factor.  Have you been there Corey?  

Ed,

Prairie Dunes is one of the top three courses I have played.  But I have not played that many of the top courses in the country, perhaps 5 of the top twenty depending on which rankings you look at.  The only one I would rank above it is Crystal Downs from what I have seen.

I think not having a real long par five is a possible problem from a raters perspective.  It doesn't have that intimidating reputation either, so perhaps access is a rating issue, as ridiculous as that is.  The greens are about as good as you will find though, especially the original ones, and the terrain is All-World.  I also agree there are a couple of holes on the back, the 12th in particular, that just don't seem "great."    

[corey miller]

As someone who is involved in a restoration project and has heard the concerns of 350 average country club members I would say that there is no wow factor at PD in the eyes of the average person.  

I have been in Hutch numerous times and I usually don't just go to eat at the Blue Duck.

[Tyler Kearns]

An old thread comparing Sand Hills & Prairie Dunes;
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4849

[Jerry Kluger]

How cool would it be if the USGA approached Crenshaw and he agreed to film segments on some holes at Prairie Dunes,  pointing out what makes them interesting and challenging, and then showing them during the telecast of the Senior Open as they are playing the holes.  

[ed_getka]

Tyler,
   Thanks for the link, that was great stuff.

Tom H,
    I am just looking for feedback on what people feel are the weaknesses of PD. I can see a number of reasons why one would mark PD down that I would find reasonable. Length was mentioned, although you would have to be quite a stick to need more than the 6,700 that PD offers up. I would say the biggest difference between SH and PD is in the driving demands. SH is a bit wider on average, BUT you don't fear going off line at SH because 9 times out of 10 you will find your ball and be able to play it (maybe only a wedge, but it isn't likely to be unplayable). At PD you know going in the gunsch gives you less than a 50% chance of finding your ball, so I feel the driving test is a little sterner at PD. SH has more great par 5's, but again going for SH par 5's in two doesn't instill nearly the fear of God that PD does.
    I don't know how the staff at SH was in 2002, but I haven't experienced warmer people than the people who work at SH and PD.
   

If one were to quibble and try to find places to mark down PD I think they would start with the driving demands (although that doesn't hold a lot of water with me since I am a wretched driver of the ball, and I still felt PD was doable from the back tees)(of course I could be delusional).
   There isn't a lot of ebb and flow to PD, as in no let up, you just can't afford to let your guard down for a second or a big number can bite you.
   The par 3's all play to elevated greens, although in different configurations. Short isn't a picnic, and long is worse on 2 holes and not much easier on the other two.
    A hard course to score on, where double bogeys will EASILY outpace birdies by a 2-3:1 margin depending on ones handicap, and yet you don't feel for a second that PD is unfair, but just a GREAT test of golf.
    #12, I'm sure some don't like the field goal aspect of the approach shot between the trees, but even without the trees that would not be the easiest hole in the world with that green.
   I could see any of the above as reasonable arguments why PD isn't #1. I fully agree with the assessment that there are 15-20 courses that could be #1 based on one's personal preference. PD is certainly one of them in my book.
   I put PD on a par with Royal Dornoch as the most balanced test of golf I have played on their respective continents.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed:

Great stuff, that gives me a great feel as for the overall quality of PD.  

And I'm right with you re the staff at SH - great people, proud to be there, make you feel like part of the family.  That was the case both times I've been, last summer and a few years ago.

TH

[Allan Long]

Three things.....location, location, location. Now, I say that with a bit of wink, because Mullen, NE isn't the easiest place to get to either. However, I have always felt that Hutchinson, KS, for better or worse, has the perception of being in the middle of nowhere, and as such, isn't high on many people's radar.

There is a wow factor at PD that is evident the moment you drive in. If this course were on Long Island would it be more highly regarded? Probably, although I don't see it ever getting to number 1.

[ed_getka]

Jerry,
   That would be cool.

That reminds me, C&C have been on retainer at PD for a while and have done a lot of work adding some bunkers, expanding some, and redefining some of them.
  Anyone who has not been there before would be very unlikely to be able to pick out anything they have done there. There have been mounds added between #12-13 and #14-15 for some definition between holes that only just begin to look noticeable AFTER you have been told they are not original.
   

[ed_getka]

Allan,
   Why? As I have noted, a case can be made for why, so what are some of the factors in your opinion?

[CHrisB]

Ed,
I played a tournament at Prairie Dunes last summer and loved the golf course. One of my very favorite courses. There was a real drawback, however, concerning the "gunch" and stroke play. The "gunch" was as thick as it ever has been because of an apparently wet spring and there was a rumor that the USGA requested that Prairie Dunes not thin it out.

Everyone agreed that if you hit it into the "gunch", the worst thing that can happen is for you to find the ball and think that you can play it. There are many spots out there where if you try to play out of the "gunch" and don't get it out, you may not be able to finish the hole, because the options for an unplayable lie (2 club lengths, replay from previous spot, or go back on a line from the flag through the ball) wouldn't allow for any type of shot. There was at least one guy who scored double-digits on a hole because of that exact scenario.

Of course in match play, it would simply be a lost hole and on to the next tee.

[Mark Arata]

It would be great place to hold a Ryder Cup then.....it would be an amazing match play course, you could really spit the bit on 17 and 18 with a match on the line and you would have some really cool options down wind on 14 and 15.......

Probably will never happen, but it would be very cool to see.

[ed_getka]

Chris Clouser,
   Why would you rate CD above PD? What is missing at PD? or what does CD have above and beyond PD?

[ed_getka]

Chris Brauner,
   How demanding on a 1-10 scale did you find the driving demands at PD? Now imagine it without gunsch, and what would you rate it?

[Allan Long]

Ed,

There is no way to put a finger on any reason why. Architecturally, I think it is as fine a golf course as I have played. Someone asked me which I preferred between Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes, and I could not honestly answer. Maybe to be #1 you need part accessibility (geographically speaking), part television exposure, and part hype. Maybe after the Senior Open is there you may see a renewed interest in the course. The people in Hutch know what they have, and the people who have played there know how good it is. Maybe that's enough.

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