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SPDB

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Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« on: May 02, 2006, 09:55:38 AM »
It appears that Silva has built quite a franchise retouching Raynor designs.  To date, I believe he has worked on Lookout Mtn, Mountain Lake, Fox Chapel and CC of Charleston (St. Louis too, if we include MacD designs).

I've begun to take a closer look at his work, now that it appears these are more than just one-off jobs. Seeing pictures of the recent work, it strikes me that his bunker work seems really forced, and almost hyper geometric relative to Raynor.

Some of the bunkers at  Mountain Lake appear almost comically square (admittedly, this may owe more to much of the original work being Bank's more than Raynor). His work at St. Louis seems inconspicuous (i'll be going back in a couple of weeks to check it out), but some of the other ones I've seen strike me as strange.  

Does anybody else get this impression?

It is quite possible, even probable, that the bunkers are to the spec of what was there, and I've simply misunderstood Raynor's style, or may have gotten used to a style that, perhaps, doesn't represent what was there originally, way back when. But nevertheless, I've seen a lot of Raynor and a lot of pictures, and this is just an observation that has occurred to me lately.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 08:11:22 PM by SPDB »

corey miller

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2006, 10:10:09 AM »


I have not seen any of the work that you refer to.  However, Black Creek to me looks hyper geometric.  Of course, that is his own so no problem there.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2006, 10:10:52 AM »
Sean, perhaps it is a matter of Silva interpreting a slightly more sharp edged, geometric shaped feature than "evolved" via years of maintenance.  I think if you look at early photos of these greens and bunkers, they are geometric shapes (rectangles, squares, diamonds) but also were increasingly softened as each year of maintenance past bye.  I'd like to hear George Bahto's thoughts on whether the shapes and edges were crisp and sharp when first built by SR.  I think the answer lies somewhere in between.  

But, as the sharp edges probably evolved before, I think Silva's will also soften a bit.  

Doak's team did some interpretive restoring of some holes at Yeaman's, and some recommending to mow more square and straight lines on some greens.  I haven't seen YH now in some 6 years.  But, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the straight lines of mowing green edges have softened a bit.  

Maybe Silva wants to come out of post restoration construction a little extreem, because he knows maintenance will naturally soften it a bit.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

wsmorrison

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2006, 10:11:52 AM »
I definitely recognize the close adherence to true geometric forms on these coures where Silva worked.  I would hesitate to characterize them before I knew what was intended by the original designers.  I'd want to research drawings, archival materials and particularly early photographs before making such a determination.  Clearly naturalism was not a priority at CC Charleston and Fox Chapel in particular.  
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 10:12:58 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2006, 10:17:31 AM »
Silva also restored Elkridge, a Raynor course in Baltimore.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2006, 10:45:40 AM »
SPDB,
I am going out to Fox Chapel in two weeks for a talk and will be playing the golf course as well.  I am anxious to see his work there.  I know the members are mixed about it (particularly the steepness of the bunkers) but that is not necessarily a knock on Silva.  Raynor's bunkers were steep and quite penal and some members may just not like that.  I'll post some photos when I return.

Note: Sorry we couldn't meet up this trip to MA.  I just have too much packed in.  So many courses to see, so little time!

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2006, 10:46:31 AM »
Yeamans still maintains some square mowing patterns on the greens most notably at hole 1.  The bunkers at YH do not exhibit extreme geometric shapes to them.  Most of the greenside bunkers are generally rectangular in shape and show the typical severe sloping sides and flat bottoms.  One real quirkly bunker too similar to DAH at PV on hole 15.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2006, 11:42:51 AM »
Not to hijack my own thread, but all of this business about designing to anticipate evolution (maintenance or otherwise) -isn't that what Fazio did at Merion?

Phil Benedict

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2006, 12:00:27 PM »
SPDB,
I am going out to Fox Chapel in two weeks for a talk and will be playing the golf course as well.  I am anxious to see his work there.  I know the members are mixed about it (particularly the steepness of the bunkers) but that is not necessarily a knock on Silva.  Raynor's bunkers were steep and quite penal and some members may just not like that.  I'll post some photos when I return..

Interested in what you have to say about Fox Chapel.  I thought it was great even though I came to grief in a couple of those bunkers.  Even when you aren't against the bank they are so deep that standard bunker technique may not work because you have to get the shot up so fast.  My sand game wasn't up to the challenge.  Still I thought some of those steep bunkers gave the course a dramatic look that I have only seen at Yale
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 09:22:55 AM by Phil Benedict »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2006, 12:09:40 PM »
SPDB,

  You may know this already--so I apologise if it's rehash--a lot of the Raynor/Banks I have seen is not perfectly linear.  Specifically, the bunker faces were not straight lines--there were contours built into those--picture wavy lines moving left to right--as opposed to the mental picture of a straight line heading up at a 45 degree angle or whatever from the floor of the bunker.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 12:26:29 PM »
Douglas - I'm sorry, but I'm not certain I understand what you are saying, or how it relates to the question I pose about Silva's work.

I'm intimately familiar with Raynor's work as it exists today.

Mark Fine - I too am sorry we won't get together this trip. Enjoy it though, and will catch up the next time around.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 12:27:10 PM by SPDB »

Jay Flemma

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2006, 12:40:13 PM »
SPDB wrote "It appears that Silva has built quite a franchise retouching Raynor designs.  To date, I believe he has worked on Lookout Mtn, Mountain Lake, Fox Chapel and CC of Charleston (St. Louis too, if we include MacD designs).

Jay's recent postings about CCofC have prompted me to take a closer look at his work, now that it appears these are more than just one-off jobs. Seeing pictures of the recent work, it strikes me that his bunker work seems really forced, and almost hyper geometric relative to Raynor.

Some of the bunkers at  Mountain Lake appear almost comically square (admittedly, this may owe more to much of the original work being Bank's more than Raynor). His work at St. Louis seems inconspicuous (i'll be going back in a couple of weeks to check it out), but some of the other ones I've seen make me think something is amiss.

Does anybody else get this impression?"

I am happy to report that yours fear should be set completely to rest.  I have seen firsthand the number of clubs, other architects, researchers and other people devoted to helping Brian restore the CC charleston to its exact correct specs...as raynor laid them out.  Brian has garnered an incredible amount of information from all corners of the past...original specs, pics, drawings, etc.  He is NOT putting his spin on the course in any way and the course and members and indeed charleston golfing community are all of one like mind...we are 100% behind Brian and what he is doing.  From the course execs to the shapers to the staff to the owners...they believe in Brian overall restoration and the minutiae with which he has dug up to effectuate it.

Many members I know from Mtn Lake feel the same way.  I hope some of them come out here and join in this thread, for I feel that while you posed your question in a gentlemanly way, the ramifications of the fact that you are erroneous, if not allayed, might unfairly brand this man and hurt his chance for future work.  Its a serious accusation you leveled...that he takes liberties with raynor's work in a restoration.  I have seen the research materials first hand that he uses.  I have met with the reserach team...which is extensive...and I have been privileged to look at both sets of plans as well as the photos.

They match.  You can sleep more easily.  The man the powers that be trusted with the job is doing it all right...right down to "doing the corners."

If Brian silva says Raynor meant for a green to be shaped like a trapezoid...with hard corners...then you take it to the bank that that's a fact. The man is painstaking in researching those details.

Just look at the man's ORIGINAL work.  With only the exception  of Black Creek...his tribute to Raynor...there isnt a single rectangle, square, geometric shape (other than round) or baroque looking thing at Red tail, waverly oaks, Cape cod or shaker hills.

You have an UNBELIEVABLE course at Mtn Lake...please lets celebrate the man who devotes his life to doing such good work...not bury him.

One last thing.  Lets all remember these architects are people too...they feel hurt when we dont appreciate the thousands of hours they work on sites and plans, they bleed when we cut them and they have wives who have to be comforted every time their career takes a downturn due to a misunderstanding...its one thing to say "I didnt like this" or "that's not my style," but its something different entirely to say someone "made a franchise" out of campy-ing Raynor designs...especially when there is so much going on behind the scenes about getting the design right to which we might not be privy.  Brin Silva does not run a half-spirited cottage industry in anything he does.  He does top quality work.

Again, please understand I send this in the spirit of comeradery and intelligent discussion...this is not meant to attack anyone on any way.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 12:47:05 PM by Jay Flemma »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2006, 12:50:42 PM »
Douglas - I'm sorry, but I'm not certain I understand what you are saying, or how it relates to the question I pose about Silva's work.

I'm intimately familiar with Raynor's work as it exists today.



Ok, here...


Quote
...it strikes me that his bunker work seems really forced, and almost hyper geometric relative to Raynor.


I'm agreeing with you, even if you're a Red Sox fan.  What I'm saying is, the grass bunker faces in Raynor/Banks aren't always perfectly straight lines--they have waves and contours to them.  I imagine you do know what I'm talking about now.  


"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2006, 01:52:39 PM »
'When there is a unanimous opinion that such and such a hazard is perfect, one usually finds it commonplace.' C.B. Macdonald, Scotland’s Gift – Golf.

I am sure that Brian Silva today does not care about hairy bunkers. My guess is he is in Red Sox utopia with Johnny Damon going 0-4 last night and The Red Sox winning.

As Jay alludes to, Brian is very passionate about Raynor. The fact that Mountain Lake (Silva) bunkers look different from The Creek (Doak) or Yale (Rulewich/Ramsey) is what makes this fun for me. I think Mountan Lake's bunkers look very cool from the ground and a little funky from aerials.



If I had the legacy of Sleepy Hollow or The Creek, I would probably hire Hanse/Bahto. If I was looking for more of a renovation/spicing it up (Mountain Lake, CC of C) I would hire Silva.

I hope my friends at Southampton hires one of them!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2006, 02:48:59 PM »
Jay - My initial question was just that, a question based on my impressions. It offered no facts and included no accusations. Rather, I set out my impressions practically inviting somebody to convince me otherwise. As an inveterate blogger and published reviewer of golf courses and their architecture (and a lawyer to boot!), you should be familiar with the distinction and sensitive to the fact that no one's work is above question or critical discussion. I understand you responded in a gentlemanly way, and I took it that way, but you have to see that, leaving aside your substantive comments on Silva, your response to me (its gentility notwithstanding) was out of all proportion to my initial query.

But leaving that aside, you expressed hope that Mtn. Lake members would come on here and set the record straight, and your prayers were partially answered, Mike Sweeney posted immediately, but the record is still unclear. A member at Mountain Lake, Mike offers his assessment (and Mike if I'm taking you out of contex, please correct me):

Quote
If I was looking for more of a renovation/spicing it up (Mountain Lake, CC of C) I would hire Silva.

Mountain Lake is a wonderful course. I've played many pre-Silva rounds there, and the members seem pleased with the work, so I'm not criticizing it. But Mike's opinion certainly doesn't correct my initial question.

Doug - I'm sorry, I'm still not getting you. Do you mean the top lines of the bunkers are wavy/contoured or do you mean that the faces themselves are? Also, what does this observation mean relative to Silva's work?

And BTW, I'm a Mets fan, but pleased that last night's Yanks loss further widens the gulf between the best and worst baseball teams in NY.



« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 02:55:54 PM by SPDB »

Jay Flemma

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2006, 02:57:11 PM »
Dear Sean:

I was speaking GLOBALLY of the effect that could occur should someone perhaps more tangentially familiar with Brian's work read what was written...and what could occur if they did not understand the context.  As a lawyer, I have to always look not only at what the deal says before it gets signed, but at what eventualities might, in an imperfect world, occur in the future.  When playing out the "chess moves" several levels in to the future in my head, I saw the eventuality I sought to diffuse in my post.

There is no question you asked the question in the spirit of intellectual investigation, but others could have been confused as to the impact of the inquiry.

Michael Moore

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2006, 03:31:06 PM »
Flemma -

Would you consider Black Rock in Hingham MA to be bereft of squares and rectangles? I got an aerial to post later that has like ten squared-off bunkers in a small area.

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 04:05:06 PM »

There is no question you asked the question in the spirit of intellectual investigation, but others could have been confused as to the impact of the inquiry.


Jay - If we can't ask questions like these or make these types of observations, Ran should just pull the plug today. Seriously, character/career assassination is an avocation for some on here, not me. I'm just making an observation and asking questions prompted by it.

Jay Flemma

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2006, 04:15:28 PM »
Mike...post the pic and I'll comment on it.  You'll have to post the illustration for me to do chalk talk.

Brian Jones

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2006, 08:14:02 PM »
A very interesting topic for me.  My club (Greenville CC in SC) is working with Brian Silva to renovate our Riverside course.  Although the course is not a Raynor design, the plan is to renovate the course in the "design style" of Seth Raynor.  This is especially interesting because some of the course is said to be originally laid out by Donald Ross of all people during a period known as his "mail in period".  At any rate, we are very excited about this project and the potential of a second top notch course to compliment our Chanticleer course.  

TEPaul

Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2006, 08:20:30 PM »
I know both courses well and the bunkers at both the Fox Chapel and Mountain Lake projects turned out a lot more geometric or squared off (particulaly on the incoming corners) than anything Raynor did on those two courses.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 08:22:09 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2006, 08:22:23 PM »
I personally have never recommended to any club that they mow square corners on greens, nor do we like to build right-angled corners on features.  We only recommend that the mowing lines more closely follow the landforms and the mowing lines that can be clearly seen on old aerial photos, and seldom on those do you see a 90-degree corner.

Also, in restoration work, different contractors can produce different results.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2006, 08:34:11 PM »
Tom, then what is the deal on Yeaman's?  Did they mow the corners square on a few of those holes on their own?  When you folks finished there, were the corners on some of their greens more square than when you started, or the same as before you worked there?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2006, 11:30:42 PM »


Doug - I'm sorry, I'm still not getting you. Do you mean the top lines of the bunkers are wavy/contoured or do you mean that the faces themselves are? Also, what does this observation mean relative to Silva's work?

And BTW, I'm a Mets fan, but pleased that last night's Yanks loss further widens the gulf between the best and worst baseball teams in NY.



Sean-

  Ok, one last time.  The faces are contoured.  I realise I can't be all things to all people, so I'm bowing out of this discussion.  
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 11:32:16 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Assessing Silva's Raynor Restorations
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 06:55:23 AM »
RJ:  A couple of the clubs we have consulted for have gotten into making the corners square on some of the greens, at least for a little while.  Usually it's either the superintendent or the green chairman who gets on that kick.  My experience is that they only do it for a year or two until they realize it doesn't look that great or they get tired of the extra work to do it that way.